Syt's Pictorial Collection of Stuff and Things (image heavy)

[garbon]

Okay so not a full defense of the notion of entirely doing away with them then?

Note, I didn't live in a rural area but in a city of 40,000. Which I would think suggests that adopting a metropolis approach everywhere would be a radical overhaul of how many people live. Presumably, in a car less world, you would either need to discourage people from living in spread out areas and/or tell them to adopt a horse and buggy.

That's a North American issue I would think, though - my town of 30k in Germany was perfectly walkable, but it grew historically and organically for the most part from the 9th century, whereas a lot of U.S. cities are much newer, and in the last 50-60(?) years designed around people having cars to get around.

( That said, a common trend, thanks to ubiquitous car ownership in Germany was/is stores moving out of the city center and opening stores on a big lot on the periphery.)

So agreed is an issue for newer planned places. Where I lived was actually founded in the 17th century, but I would bet where our house was, used to just be fields/orchards up until the car made it viable to live in such a place.

[garbon]

I think there might be a point of confusion in this discussion. We all are quite aware that many people in major cities do not need cars. Location of services and public transport will suffice. After all, I've been in London for 5 years and don't have a British driver's license. But the discussion doesn't appear to be limited to whether cities should ban cars from city centers but rather Sheilbh's claim that cars should be banished entirely.

I don't think not having a car should be an urban luxury. We need to make it possible for no-one to need a car. Through remote selling/working/services, more new and better public transport (the number of trams in towns up and down the country, even tiny towns, that were torn up to make space for cars is a shame), making the roads comfortable and focused on cyclists, more density (living in a town or village so you're close to the shops not in a country house/farm). I think it's more possible now because of the internet.

You know I lived in one of the most remote parts of thie Highlands - I was 8 miles from a town with supermarkets etc. That's do-able with a bus service or on a bike.

And chances are even after those changes cars will be a more convenient or comfortable option - so you need eventually to ban them. From a purely European perspective since 2000 we've reduced the carbon output of energy, industry, agriculture and our homes. The emissions from transport is still growing and it's overwhelmingly on the roads. Unless we address that and make cars unnecessary I think we can't really adress the issue (and I think it would lead to a better physical environment that we all live in too).

I think we view other ways of life that aren't as car-focused as somehow intrinsic to that culture - Danes or Dutch cycling everywhere is a picturesque, but somewhat eccentric/unique cultural values. But those countries, like everywhere else, were very car-centric until the late 60s/70s when there were campaigns that led to planners and governments making different decisions. That produced a culture that is less car-centric. We can have that if we make those choices and we can go further. Re-claiming our city centres is a nice start though.

You're right - as I say I've no idea what larger countries do (although maybe people should live closer together).

All of which sound like some pretty radical changes and you would need long term planning to get there. After all, you can't just ban cars and expect people to rely on services that aren't there or for services to suddenly ramp up.

Also, I can't help feeling that we may be missing the mark by not thinking about people who may not have an additional hour or so to add to their day by taking a bike to work (let alone think of the state of them when they get into work...).

[Maladict]

Also, I can't help feeling that we may be missing the mark by not thinking about people who may not have an additional hour or so to add to their day by taking a bike to work (let alone think of the state of them when they get into work...).

A lot of people seem to be perfectly fine about wasting two or more hours a day in traffic. Apparently they're not that busy, after all

[Tamas]

Also, I can't help feeling that we may be missing the mark by not thinking about people who may not have an additional hour or so to add to their day by taking a bike to work (let alone think of the state of them when they get into work...).

A lot of people seem to be perfectly fine about wasting two or more hours a day in traffic. Apparently they're not that busy, after all

But you see, unless you go from central city location to central city location it won't be shorter by train not in Hungary and England at least.

In fact just the other day I drove to central London instead of my usual train option because of covid. It took me bit less than an hour to arrive 5 minute walk from where I was going, as opposed to 10 minute drive to train station, 40 minute train ride, then 20 minute tube ride, then 10 minutes on foot. And although parking was obnoxiously expensive because I parked in the middle of a posh area, it was still a few pounds cheaper than a return train ticket (tube is cheap so I won't add that).

[garbon]

Also, I can't help feeling that we may be missing the mark by not thinking about people who may not have an additional hour or so to add to their day by taking a bike to work (let alone think of the state of them when they get into work...).

A lot of people seem to be perfectly fine about wasting two or more hours a day in traffic. Apparently they're not that busy, after all

Logic seems off as those individuals would then be spending what up to 4 hours a day on a bicycle?

[Sheilbh]

All of which sound like some pretty radical changes and you would need long term planning to get there. After all, you can't just ban cars and expect people to rely on services that aren't there or for services to suddenly ramp up.

Oh for sure - I'm not saying we ban them tomorrow. But I would ban them in city centres tomorrow. There's lots to do to make it possible, but I think it should be our goal.

Also, I can't help feeling that we may be missing the mark by not thinking about people who may not have an additional hour or so to add to their day by taking a bike to work (let alone think of the state of them when they get into work...).

I agree. I think about 45 minutes is the max people are willing to travel (one way) for work and a move away from cars reconfigures where they would want to live, or the extent to which they need to physically be in the office. I think those are both current trends.

But you see, unless you go from central city location to central city location it won't be shorter by train not in Hungary and England at least.

In fact just the other day I drove to central London instead of my usual train option because of covid. It took me bit less than an hour to arrive 5 minute walk from where I was going, as opposed to 10 minute drive to train station, 40 minute train ride, then 20 minute tube ride, then 10 minutes on foot. And although parking was obnoxiously expensive because I parked in the middle of a posh area, it was still a few pounds cheaper than a return train ticket (tube is cheap so I won't add that).

But again I'm not saying let's have everything exactlly as they are but we ban cars. I'm saying we change our society to remove the need for cars and then (because people are lazy) we ban them, where that's already possible we should do it. It's an argument for more density (both cities and towns), for different thinking about work, for different ways of travel etc.

So that's a prime example. In my view you should be encouraged to live closer to the office or your work should be encouraged to query if you really need to come in if you (and the rest of your team etc) actually don't need to and don't like living in the city. In which case there's no need for you to be here at all. You could go to Lincolnshire

[Maladict]

Also, I can't help feeling that we may be missing the mark by not thinking about people who may not have an additional hour or so to add to their day by taking a bike to work (let alone think of the state of them when they get into work...).

A lot of people seem to be perfectly fine about wasting two or more hours a day in traffic. Apparently they're not that busy, after all

Logic seems off as those individuals would then be spending what up to 4 hours a day on a bicycle?

I'm just saying if time was that precious, you'd think people would move closer to their work or find work closer to home.

I find that motorists who moan a lot about public transport being inefficient will take massive traffic jams as a fact of life. It seems to be more of a mindset than anything else.

[Barrister]

I find that motorists who moan a lot about public transport being inefficient will take massive traffic jams as a fact of life. It seems to be more of a mindset than anything else.

When I moved to Edmonton 9 years ago I did the park-and-ride - drive to the LRT station then take the train.  But the park-and-ride started filling up earlier and earlier to the point where I was just driving to work most days.

I had a real aversion to taking the bus from my house to the LRT - buses are crowded and for poor people.  But once I got over that and started busing I found it quite a bit more enjoyable than fighting traffic every day.

There is definitely a mindset at work.


And of course now due to Covid I'm stuck driving again.

[Sheilbh]

I'm just saying if time was that precious, you'd think people would move closer to their work or find work closer to home.

I find that motorists who moan a lot about public transport being inefficient will take massive traffic jams as a fact of life. It seems to be more of a mindset than anything else.

Yeah I love public transport or cycling/walking because I can either fill my time with reading/work as necessary or I'm getting at least some exercise. Car journeys are just dead time.

I would add that I would have some sympathy with the whole "cars are FREEDOM" line if people were mainly using them to do Route 66 or other freedom-enhancing journeys. But they are typically used sort of trapped on the M62 or pootling to and from the local Morrisons. It doesn't scream freedom to me, just a waste

[garbon]

Also, I can't help feeling that we may be missing the mark by not thinking about people who may not have an additional hour or so to add to their day by taking a bike to work (let alone think of the state of them when they get into work...).

A lot of people seem to be perfectly fine about wasting two or more hours a day in traffic. Apparently they're not that busy, after all

Logic seems off as those individuals would then be spending what up to 4 hours a day on a bicycle?

I'm just saying if time was that precious, you'd think people would move closer to their work or find work closer to home.

I find that motorists who moan a lot about public transport being inefficient will take massive traffic jams as a fact of life. It seems to be more of a mindset than anything else.

Unless, of course, say you can't afford to live near your work (and/or don't want to live in the shoebox which is all you can afford).

[garbon]

I'm just saying if time was that precious, you'd think people would move closer to their work or find work closer to home.

I find that motorists who moan a lot about public transport being inefficient will take massive traffic jams as a fact of life. It seems to be more of a mindset than anything else.

Yeah I love public transport or cycling/walking because I can either fill my time with reading/work as necessary or I'm getting at least some exercise. Car journeys are just dead time.

I would add that I would have some sympathy with the whole "cars are FREEDOM" line if people were mainly using them to do Route 66 or other freedom-enhancing journeys. But they are typically used sort of trapped on the M62 or pootling to and from the local Morrisons. It doesn't scream freedom to me, just a waste

It also just seems to me that you have a myopic vision of car usage. When I lived in SF, having a car was preferrable for my commute as otherwise I would need to spending time walking to the metro station, taking that to a near suburb where I would have to catch a bus and then walk from that bus station to my office. Taking my car halved that time and then also gave me easy freedom to run errands during my breaks from work.

It also greatly changed my life in SF as I could easily visit parts of the city that would otherwise take at least an hour to get to by public transport, as well as easy reach/access to all the areas that surrounded SF.

Without a radical change of public transport, my life would have been very, very limited.

Similarly, I feel like my experience of life in the UK has been far different from what it would be if I had a car as there are so many out of the way bits that I'd easily be able to reach but aren't worth all the effort changing lines multiple times over to get to from London.

[Maladict]

Yeah I love public transport or cycling/walking because I can either fill my time with reading/work as necessary or I'm getting at least some exercise. Car journeys are just dead time.

Exactly, I'll take a one hour train ride over a 30 minute car ride any day.

[Valmy]

I guess if you are young and single but what if you are elderly, disabled or have to juggle the needs of young children? Just wistfully hiking from train to train for hour after hour seems less romantic under many circumstances.

Nevermind traveling to less developed areas or hauling things.

[Maladict]

Unless, of course, say you can't afford to live near your work (and/or don't want to live in the shoebox which is all you can afford).

Of course. But still, when I had a one hour commute I couldn't imagine having a two hour one. There just wouldn't be enough time. And then I got a two hour commute, by car, but opted for the three hour train ride. I'm not saying I enjoyed it, but I've never read so much in my life. The two hour car commute would have broken me.
That said, both a two or three hour commute will make me look for a new job fairly quickly.

[Sheilbh]

Again I mean I'm not saying we do this now. My point is all of these things you're pointing out that cars are better for is because we have built our society around people using cars. We can make other choices and that may change the balance - as we've seen in the Netherlands or Denmark.

Although the disability and elderly is slightly weird to me because outside of the cities on country buses I'd guess 80% of the people you see are disabled or elderly users (plus the school runs). I think it's something like 60% of people with disabilities don't have a car, the elderly get free bus travel and often don't feel comfortable/safe driving. The bus services are nowhere near good enough for these people at the minute. But we should be improving public transport for them (and for everyone else too).