Europeans, Pacificsm and Desertion

[Jaron]

I can't wait for Tim the teacher to get an essay from a student that runs through the conventional wisdom he holds so dear.

APPALLIG! F!

I will grade all essays objectively. I had several professors whom I didn't agree with me that extended me that courtesy and I will do the same.

*cough* Special education

[Josquius]

Bloody hell, and to think Tim wants to be a teacher. His ilk died out in the 50s over here, I dearly hope he's a special case in the US.
These were men dragged out of a pre-modern existence and thrown into hell on earth to die for no good reason. They deserve to be commemorated just as much as any other victim of the war.

[Martinus]

Bloody hell, and to think Tim wants to be a teacher. His ilk died out in the 50s over here, I dearly hope he's a special case in the US.
These were men dragged out of a pre-modern existence and thrown into hell on earth to die for no good reason. They deserve to be commemorated just as much as any other victim of the war.

Yup. Many of these men ended up being executed. Even more condemnable were executions of those soldiers who, after being shell-shocked, were sent back into combat and couldn't cope (but did not desert - simply refused to fight).

[Martinus]

At the end of the day, is self preservation both ways. Either not wanting to die for something you don't believe in/are against to or not wanting to die in a boneheaded operation with no chance or survival. Yes, morals are different, but the bottom line is not wanting to die for something you don't see a meaning to.

Self preservation is not a terribly praise-worthy motivation.

There is nothing particularly monument-worthy in being Jewish, Gypsy or gay, yet we build monuments for people who were killed or imprisoned because they were Jewish, Gypsy or gay, because we perceive such persecution as an injustice we want to redress, at least partially, by honoring the victims.

I see this monument as a similar exercise. It is not meant to praise desertion, but to honor those who were killed or imprisoned as a result of deserting/refusing to fight, as we now see such executions or imprisonments as unjust.

[Martinus]

My firm stance is to take whatever Tim and Lettow believe in and go the opposite direction.

Good plan.  Add Neil and Marti to the list, and you just about have it.  Of course, Neil is just trolling, but I am pretty sure that the others usualy are not.

Now that's not a very good rule, as usually I'm on the opposite end than the Neil-Tim-lettow circus trio.

[Neil]

That's a lie.  They lived a modern existance.  At any rate, I have a hard time condemning the powers that be of the time for enforcing the social contract.

[Neil]

My firm stance is to take whatever Tim and Lettow believe in and go the opposite direction.

Good plan.  Add Neil and Marti to the list, and you just about have it.  Of course, Neil is just trolling, but I am pretty sure that the others usualy are not.

Now that's not a very good rule, as usually I'm on the opposite end than the Neil-Tim-lettow circus trio.

Then perhaps the answer lies in between somewhere, since you're invariably wrong.

[Josquius]

That's a lie.  They lived a modern existance. 

Some did, not all.
I recently saw a semi-documentary film from the 30s called Man of Aran about life in part of western Ireland in the 1930s. People there lived a way of life unchanged for generations and they weren't the only ones. Many areas of France and the UK had still yet to fully catch up with the modern world.
City dwellers need commemorating too of course but it I could imagine it being far worse for those who had never even seen a tram or anything like that before being conscripted and thrown into the world of machine guns, artillery and gas.

[Zanza]

I have a hard time condemning the powers that be of the time for enforcing the social contract.

That's the beauty of relativism. You don't have to and can still commemorate the deserters.

[Martim Silva]

Of course people like Tim, whose experience of war is limited to a computer screen may find it disgusting to remember those who were caught in the madness and were found wanting.(...)

Don't take Tim as an example. All the WWI vet organizations were dead against the celebration of deserters and THEY were in those battlefields - so the ones best suited to have a say on the issue opposed this. Which makes the sissified decisions of modern politicians even more of an insult to all those who sacrificed so much in the trenches.

I see this monument as a similar exercise. It is not meant to praise desertion, but to honor those who were killed or imprisoned as a result of deserting/refusing to fight, as we now see such executions or imprisonments as unjust.

Frankly, I see desertion in the face of the enemy by 0,0001% of the troops as not being worth celebrating. If the conditions were really that incredibly inhuman, why did 99,99% of the troops remained in their units?

The really bad situations and pointless offensives took place in 1917, and the soldiers of the time did what troops should do when faced with bad orders - insted of defecting, they refused to comply and presented their demands to the high-ranking commanders. It partially worked in the French Army. In Russia it exposed even more the fault of the aristocratic system and ensured the fall of the worthless Romanov and their crony nobles/businessmen.

That said, no nation survives by showing ANY kind of leniency towards those who put their safety above that of the country (or, for that matter, of their comrades in the unit).

One of the reasons why the Soviet Union survived the German onslaught of 1941 and 42 was due to its tough stance on these kinds of worthless cowards, thus ensuring the Soviet soldier fought ferociously. Retreats were usually punisheable by death, and desertion was sure to mean a painful demise from this world. It is the only way to deal with these I-only-care-to-save-my-wretched-hide people: to make sure that, while following orders may be very risky, NOT following them is a sure-way to get killed.

For that matter, surrendering is also treason. Why do you think that the Union never complained about the numbers of Soviet prisioners who died in German camps? Because it considered them all as traitors and, therefore, that they deserved everything they got.

As a result, whenever Soviet troops entered a German prisioner camp that had Soviet inmates, these were all immediately charged with treason for surrendering to the Nazis and sent packing to the work camps in the Union. Therefore, it matters little how many Soviet prisioners the Germans might have killed - a worse fate awaited the survivors after the war.

(Also sent as forced labourers to the Union were five million German troops and about 20,000 US and UK prisioners of war found in German camps. The Germans becuause they were guilty of conspiring to invade the Union, and the Allied ones because they were capitalists and thus probably up to no good against the Union anyway).

[Martinus]

Can someone wake me up when anyone who isn't a troll, an idiot or both takes Neil's/Tim's/lettow's/MartimSilva's position on this issue? Thanks.

[Admiral Yi]

There is nothing particularly monument-worthy in being Jewish, Gypsy or gay, yet we build monuments for people who were killed or imprisoned because they were Jewish, Gypsy or gay, because we perceive such persecution as an injustice we want to redress, at least partially, by honoring the victims.

I see this monument as a similar exercise. It is not meant to praise desertion, but to honor those who were killed or imprisoned as a result of deserting/refusing to fight, as we now see such executions or imprisonments as unjust.

Are you suggesting that every single person executed for desertion was a victim of injustice?

[DisturbedPervert]

In the wars of the future, soldiers who desert after being hit by the gay bomb will be given monuments as well.

[Martim Silva]

Can someone wake me up when anyone who isn't a troll, an idiot or both takes Neil's/Tim's/lettow's/MartimSilva's position on this issue? Thanks.

Translation: I intend to desert should I ever get drafted to defend my country, since I don't want to risk myself in  any way or form. And I want people to tell me that what I did was the right thing and to build a monument to honour me, not the dolts that will die to defend my hide. I will diss as an idiot anyone that expresses a different opinion.

[Martinus]

Can someone wake me up when anyone who isn't a troll, an idiot or both takes Neil's/Tim's/lettow's/MartimSilva's position on this issue? Thanks.

Translation: I intend to desert should I ever get drafted to defend my country, since I don't want to risk myself in  any way or form. And I want people to tell me that what I did was the right thing and to build a monument to honour me, not the dolts that will die to defend my hide. I will diss as an idiot anyone that expresses a different opinion.

No, I just meant to say that you are a retard, as you have demonstrated consistently throughout your posting history.