Europeans, Pacificsm and Desertion

[PDH]

My firm stance is to take whatever Tim and Lettow believe in and go the opposite direction.

[Neil]

It is disappointing that, given such a fascinating subject, the author chooses to bang a political 'euroweeinie' drum. No real mention of the incredible psychological trauma these men went through. No discussion of the real issue of the fact that some men, decent a godfearing, simply cannot cope with the terrible circumstances they find themselves in. Do you think the conscript asked to be in the hell of the trenches?

Of course people like Tim, whose experience of war is limited to a computer screen may find it disgusting to remember those who were caught in the madness and were found wanting. And perhaps Mr Oren could try to undestand why the Germans have a pacifist attitude pretty much by design.

Of course his point about Afghanistan is odd considering the contributions in blood of the British, Dutch and others.

We can remember them, but when we remember them we must also remember that what they did was shameful.  Fighting a war was not voluntary.

[grumbler]

My firm stance is to take whatever Tim and Lettow believe in and go the opposite direction.

Good plan.  Add Neil and Marti to the list, and you just about have it.  Of course, Neil is just trolling, but I am pretty sure that the others usualy are not.

[Richard Hakluyt]

If you go to a British Commonwealth war cemetery there is a predominant atmosphere of loss and sacrifice, not one of military triumph, in fact triumph is almost wholly absent. These cemeteries are not exclusive btw, there are even graves for German war dead within the confines of many British Empire cemeteries. Within this context it makes sense to have a memorial to the small numbers of men executed for desertion in WW1, since the cemeteries are far more about loss than glory.

[Tamas]

What The Larch and others seem to forget: it was not just the question of deserter as an individual deciding to get the hell out: his desertion put more risk on his unit, his comrades.

Sometimes, desertion can be the right answer (most notably: Germany 1945), but it should not be honored under any circumstances.

[The Larch]

What The Larch and others seem to forget: it was not just the question of deserter as an individual deciding to get the hell out: his desertion put more risk on his unit, his comrades.

Sometimes, desertion can be the right answer (most notably: Germany 1945), but it should not be honored under any circumstances.

It's WWI what we're talking about, their whole units most probably were annihilated anyway in order to advance an inch of muddy ground for nothing at all.

[PDH]

Just read some of the transcripts of interviews from the Somme...there is not a lot of glory there, just a lot of dehumanization and loss.

[Ed Anger]

I can't wait for Tim the teacher to get an essay from a student that runs through the conventional wisdom he holds so dear.

APPALLIG! F!

[Admiral Yi]

It's the most basic motivation of any animal, human or not, it's a primitive and indispensable instinct for survival, and people have been vilified for abiding to it.

Because it can conflict with one's responsibility to the group.

[jimmy olsen]

I can't wait for Tim the teacher to get an essay from a student that runs through the conventional wisdom he holds so dear.

APPALLIG! F!

I will grade all essays objectively. I had several professors whom I didn't agree with me that extended me that courtesy and I will do the same.

[grumbler]

What The Larch and others seem to forget: it was not just the question of deserter as an individual deciding to get the hell out: his desertion put more risk on his unit, his comrades.

Indeed, and that is why desertion is, in fact, so rare.

Sometimes, desertion can be the right answer (most notably: Germany 1945), but it should not be honored under any circumstances.

I don't think anyone except the pinhead who wrote the original article is arguing that anyone honors desertion under any circumstances.  Like pretty much any issue, there are shades of grey about desertion, and it can only be condemned or accepted on a case-by-case basis.  I don't know of anyone who actually admires it, though one certainly hopes that one's enemy's troops will desert.

[The Larch]

It's the most basic motivation of any animal, human or not, it's a primitive and indispensable instinct for survival, and people have been vilified for abiding to it.

Because it can conflict with one's responsibility to the group.

I guess that when you feel that your own group doesn't protect your own interests (i.e. officers sending soldiers to certain death), and with people still closer to individualistic aims rather than communal ones, it's not reasonable to expect them to conform to the collective.

What I mean is that it's not unexpected to find people unable or unwilling to void their own personal interests on those circumstances. Non brainwashed, poorly trained, equipped and led soldiers aren't exactly the best at following orders all the time, and that turns even worse when the situation is dire.

[PDH]

Grumbler hits the nail on the head.  Desertion, even in the face of an intolerable situation (think day 2 of the Somme), is rare.  The unit, the comrades, the need to NOT turn tail and demean oneself...those are more compelling reasons to stay despite the insanity than the commissar with the pistol, the desertion pole (sometimes set up so that an enemy sniper can do the killing), or any other authoritarian means of keeping soldiers in line.

[Valmy]

The guy is nuts I find it incredibly unlikely even in European Armies that a volunteer professional soldier would desert his post.  That is at least understandable in conscript armies.

[Syt]

So? Why the bleeding eyes? Ever watched "Paths of Glory"?

That movie is not so much about desertion than about mutiny and refusing seemingly suicidal orders.