The President's First Insult

[grumbler]

You probably don't understand, either.

Who does?

Only cRazy cAnuck.  And, perhaps, you, once  CC tells you what you think.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Another feature of Obama's desired transformation was on display two and one-half months later -- on April Fool's Day no less -- when he was videotaped obsequiously bowing down before the king of Saudi Arabia whose official title includes Guardian of the Two Mosques (alluding to the ones in Mecca and Medina).  This was a gesture one cannot imagine Obama ever executing before any other national leader -- let alone the prime minister of Israel.

And that bow was an offense against protocol and custom -- the Revolution had been not only a war of national liberation but a rejection of the very institution of monarchy.  American presidents do not bow down to kings  and thus it was doubly an insult, for this was no ordinary monarch but the potentate of the country where fifteen of the nineteen skyjackers on September 11, 2001 were raised and shaped by this king's religion, including 9-11's evil mastermind Osama bin Laden.

Yeah, Obama would never bow to another monarch.  Oh, wait...

[mongers]

You probably don't understand, either.

Who does?

Only cRazy cAnuck.  And, perhaps, you, once  CC tells you what you think.

Now you're really showing your true metal. 

[Jacob]

The term refers to all members of the Judeo-Chritian religions. It means exactly what CC specifically claimed it does NOT mean, in fact.

Personally, I find the Judeo-Christian construction kind of weird.

I mean, I get "the Abrahamic Religions" alright... we've got Judaism, and the various branches of religions that have descended from Judaism, namely Christianity and Islam. That makes sense.

But what does Christianity have in common with Judaism that Islam does not have in common with Judaism? What's the special thing about Judaism and Christianity that puts them in a category together that does not include Islam?

From a Christian perspective, I can sort of see it... it's to emphasize that Christianity is developed from Judaism, and got it right. It's the same way Christians have the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament", but you won't generally hear Jews refer to the Tanakh as the New Testament for obvious reasons, and the reasoning is somewhat similar

There's also a bit of the "yeah, we persecuted you for more than a millenia, but we're cool now. We're bros" flavour to it.

But from a Jewish perspective? How is one offshoot of the Jewish faith more relevant and similar than another?

Obviously, geo-politically, there are some reasons to emphasize commonalities with Israel and the "Christian character" of the US, and de-emphasize the connections with Islam but that is pretty political.

Considering the Tanakh to be a sacred text and the prophets therein to be actual prophets is a commonality between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; as is the worship of a unitary single god. But what's the unique commonality between Judaism and Christianity, that is not also a commonality with Islam?

(and I'm not directing this just at you, Berkut)

[Admiral Yi]

The fact that the Christian God is a Jew, for one.

[Jacob]

The fact that the Christian God is a Jew, for one.

But the Jewish one isn't.

[Berkut]

I think the term is usually used when there is a desire to reference a common cultural/social bond that presumably arises from this common religious heritage. IE, Judeo-Christian values.

[Admiral Yi]

But the Jewish one isn't.

So?

[Jacob]

I think the term is usually used when there is a desire to reference a common cultural/social bond that presumably arises from this common religious heritage. IE, Judeo-Christian values.

Yeah, and I'm trying to figure out what that common cultural/social bond is, and what the common religious heritage is.

[Berkut]

I think the term is usually used when there is a desire to reference a common cultural/social bond that presumably arises from this common religious heritage. IE, Judeo-Christian values.

Yeah, and I'm trying to figure out what that common cultural/social bond is, and what the common religious heritage is.

I don't understand what there is to figure out.

You don't know what people mean when they use the term "Judeo-Christian values", for example?

[frunk]

It's a paraphyletic grouping, which reduces its utility but doesn't make it completely useless.

On the other hand if we judge something by the wiki article about it then this is a truly terrible term and should be avoided at all costs.

[Valmy]

From a Christian perspective, I can sort of see it... it's to emphasize that Christianity is developed from Judaism, and got it right. It's the same way Christians have the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament"

Well I always thought it was a reference to the Jewish and Christian roots of Western Civilization (of course not the only roots).  I guess I never thought of it as Christian propaganda but regular the idea of a cultural influence of using the Jew's scriptures for centuries along with, you know, having them physically present amongst us.  Neither of those ingredients are around for Islam.

There's also a bit of the "yeah, we persecuted you for more than a millenia, but we're cool now. We're bros" flavour to it.

I thought it was just a cultural descriptor not some kind effort to rewrite history or whatever.

But from a Jewish perspective? How is one offshoot of the Jewish faith more relevant and similar than another?

In the context of Western Civilization it is, because in my understanding this is a cultural descriptor.

Obviously, geo-politically, there are some reasons to emphasize commonalities with Israel and the "Christian character" of the US, and de-emphasize the connections with Islam but that is pretty political.

I don't think the intention is to de-emphasis anything where it would otherwise be appropriate to emphasis it.

Obviously considering the Tanakh to be a sacred text and the prophets therein to be actual prophets is a commonality between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; as is the worship of a unitary single god. But what's the unique commonality between Judaism and Christianity, that is not also a commonality with Islam?

The term is not meant to exclude Islam where it is appropriate I don't think.  But again that is my understanding of the term.  It is interesting when one's assumptions are challenged.

[Jacob]

I don't understand what there is to figure out.

You don't know what people mean when they use the term "Judeo-Christian values", for example?

Not really, no. It seems to be synonymous with "conservative Christian values" most of the time, often in relation to posting the Ten Commandments in public places or otherwise introducing Christian symbols into official contexts in the US.

[Berkut]

I don't understand what there is to figure out.

You don't know what people mean when they use the term "Judeo-Christian values", for example?

Not really, no. It seems to be synonymous with "conservative Christian values" most of the time, often in relation to posting the Ten Commandments in public places or otherwise introducing Christian symbols into official contexts in the US.

Huh.

I am about as atheists as they get, and I certainly understand what people mean. Sometimes religious nutbars use it to refer to their own religion I guess, but that doesn't taint the term, so far as I know.

Different drummers and all that I guess. I never really considered the idea that the term itself was somehow emotionally loaded.

[Valmy]

Not really, no. It seems to be synonymous with "conservative Christian values" most of the time, often in relation to posting the Ten Commandments in public places or otherwise introducing Christian symbols into official contexts in the US.

Right.  It is used to justify it as an important cultural influence.  Thus not violating church and state blah blah.