Why are we criminalizing childhood independence?

[Martinus]

Ok, maybe you guys went to schools populated by sociopaths. 

To me "bullying" means kids calling each other a "faggot" or making fun of each other's speech impediments and clothes, not engaging in BDSM rituals.

[Warspite]

As parents and adults, how do you identify and quantify bullying? How do you know the context to the roughing - for example, that a punch or a push during recess is a one off or part of a systematic targeting of a victim that includes verbal attacks and continues into lessons and after school? As we grow older, we stop seeing things as kids at some point, does that mean we might fail to notice problems that are still there?

I'd also say there's a difference between being near the bottom of the pecking order and being bullied. Easy to confuse the two.

Edit: I'm not sure the fighting-back method always works. I saw enough kids in one of my rougher schools get picked on substantially even when they hit back. Also, schools with strong discipline can end up making this a counter-productive strategy. I nearly got chucked out of one school for 'getting into fights' that were really me trying to stand up to a bully who saw me as an easy target.

[crazy canuck]

As far as I can remember, bullying was much less of a problem at my school as opposed to fights. We had a lot of fights that would take place both in school and outside of it. And many of us would leave our classes to watch them.

We had a lot of fights as well.  That was just a more extreme form of bullying.  Rare was the fight when the combatants were equally matched.  Although there were a lot of kids who did try to pick fights with me to prove how tough they were.  I was normally the one who broke the fights up when a bully was beating the crap out of a smaller/more timid kid.  And as for the notion that bullies will just move on if a kid stands up to them - in my experience the bully just comes back with more friends.

[crazy canuck]

As parents and adults, how do you identify and quantify bullying? How do you know the context to the roughing - for example, that a punch or a push during recess is a one off or part of a systematic targeting of a victim that includes verbal attacks and continues into lessons and after school? We stop seeing things as kids at some point, does that mean we might fail to notice problems that are still there?

I'd also say there's a difference between being near the bottom of the pecking order and being bullied. Easy to confuse the two.

Edit: I'm not sure the fighting-back method always works. I saw enough kids in one of my rougher schools get picked on substantially even when they hit back. Also, schools with strong discipline can end up making this a counter-productive strategy. I nearly got chucked out of one school for 'getting into fights' that were really me trying to stand up to a bully who saw me as an easy target.

You raise a very important point.  Bullying has moved to the internet.  The kinds of bullying that occur now are much more harmful than what we witnessed as kids.  Victims of this new kind of bullying are killing themselves.

[garbon]

As far as I can remember, bullying was much less of a problem at my school as opposed to fights. We had a lot of fights that would take place both in school and outside of it. And many of us would leave our classes to watch them.

We had a lot of fights as well.  That was just a more extreme form of bullying.  Rare was the fight when the combatants were equally matched.  Although there were a lot of kids who did try to pick fights with me to prove how tough they were.  I was normally the one who broke the fights up when a bully was beating the crap out of a smaller/more timid kid.  And as for the notion that bullies will just move on if a kid stands up to them - in my experience the bully just comes back with more friends.

Oh most of the fights I saw weren't like that. Mostly they were evenly matched / a majority were whites vs. brazilians fights.

There was shortly after I left a fight between two girls who both were hooking up with the same guy. Girl on girl violence led to one girl having a glass bottle broken across her face.

[crazy canuck]

Ok, maybe you guys went to schools populated by sociopaths. 

To me "bullying" means kids calling each other a "faggot" or making fun of each other's speech impediments and clothes, not engaging in BDSM rituals.

Naw bullying can also include inviting someone to off themselves.  I am not surprised you have a weak understanding of what bullying might be.

[Martinus]

As parents and adults, how do you identify and quantify bullying? How do you know the context to the roughing - for example, that a punch or a push during recess is a one off or part of a systematic targeting of a victim that includes verbal attacks and continues into lessons and after school? We stop seeing things as kids at some point, does that mean we might fail to notice problems that are still there?

I'd also say there's a difference between being near the bottom of the pecking order and being bullied. Easy to confuse the two.

Edit: I'm not sure the fighting-back method always works. I saw enough kids in one of my rougher schools get picked on substantially even when they hit back. Also, schools with strong discipline can end up making this a counter-productive strategy. I nearly got chucked out of one school for 'getting into fights' that were really me trying to stand up to a bully who saw me as an easy target.

You raise a very important point.  Bullying has moved to the internet.  The kinds of bullying that occur now are much more harmful than what we witnessed as kids.  Victims of this new kind of bullying are killing themselves.

It is much more harmful because it no longer involves beating up but now involves words on the internet? I rest my case.

[crazy canuck]

As parents and adults, how do you identify and quantify bullying? How do you know the context to the roughing - for example, that a punch or a push during recess is a one off or part of a systematic targeting of a victim that includes verbal attacks and continues into lessons and after school? We stop seeing things as kids at some point, does that mean we might fail to notice problems that are still there?

I'd also say there's a difference between being near the bottom of the pecking order and being bullied. Easy to confuse the two.

Edit: I'm not sure the fighting-back method always works. I saw enough kids in one of my rougher schools get picked on substantially even when they hit back. Also, schools with strong discipline can end up making this a counter-productive strategy. I nearly got chucked out of one school for 'getting into fights' that were really me trying to stand up to a bully who saw me as an easy target.

You raise a very important point.  Bullying has moved to the internet.  The kinds of bullying that occur now are much more harmful than what we witnessed as kids.  Victims of this new kind of bullying are killing themselves.

It is much more harmful because it no longer involves beating up but now involves words on the internet? I rest my case.

Look up Amanda Todd.  And the all too many other teens who have killed themselves because of cyber bullying.  Idiot.

[Martinus]

As far as I can remember, bullying was much less of a problem at my school as opposed to fights. We had a lot of fights that would take place both in school and outside of it. And many of us would leave our classes to watch them.

We had a lot of fights as well.  That was just a more extreme form of bullying.  Rare was the fight when the combatants were equally matched.  Although there were a lot of kids who did try to pick fights with me to prove how tough they were.  I was normally the one who broke the fights up when a bully was beating the crap out of a smaller/more timid kid.  And as for the notion that bullies will just move on if a kid stands up to them - in my experience the bully just comes back with more friends.

Oh most of the fights I saw weren't like that. Mostly they were evenly matched / a majority were whites vs. brazilians fights.

There was shortly after I left a fight between two girls who both were hooking up with the same guy. Girl on girl violence led to one girl having a glass bottle broken across her face.

Wow, was yours an inner city school? 

[Martinus]

As parents and adults, how do you identify and quantify bullying? How do you know the context to the roughing - for example, that a punch or a push during recess is a one off or part of a systematic targeting of a victim that includes verbal attacks and continues into lessons and after school? We stop seeing things as kids at some point, does that mean we might fail to notice problems that are still there?

I'd also say there's a difference between being near the bottom of the pecking order and being bullied. Easy to confuse the two.

Edit: I'm not sure the fighting-back method always works. I saw enough kids in one of my rougher schools get picked on substantially even when they hit back. Also, schools with strong discipline can end up making this a counter-productive strategy. I nearly got chucked out of one school for 'getting into fights' that were really me trying to stand up to a bully who saw me as an easy target.

You raise a very important point.  Bullying has moved to the internet.  The kinds of bullying that occur now are much more harmful than what we witnessed as kids.  Victims of this new kind of bullying are killing themselves.

It is much more harmful because it no longer involves beating up but now involves words on the internet? I rest my case.

Look up Amanda Todd.  And the all too many other teens who have killed themselves because of cyber bullying.  Idiot.

I know that - and I referred to this before when I said that if verbal harassment causes a kid to kill himself or herself, this is an indication of either serious mental health issues or a completely fucked up situation at home.

[garbon]

As far as I can remember, bullying was much less of a problem at my school as opposed to fights. We had a lot of fights that would take place both in school and outside of it. And many of us would leave our classes to watch them.

We had a lot of fights as well.  That was just a more extreme form of bullying.  Rare was the fight when the combatants were equally matched.  Although there were a lot of kids who did try to pick fights with me to prove how tough they were.  I was normally the one who broke the fights up when a bully was beating the crap out of a smaller/more timid kid.  And as for the notion that bullies will just move on if a kid stands up to them - in my experience the bully just comes back with more friends.

Oh most of the fights I saw weren't like that. Mostly they were evenly matched / a majority were whites vs. brazilians fights.

There was shortly after I left a fight between two girls who both were hooking up with the same guy. Girl on girl violence led to one girl having a glass bottle broken across her face.

Wow, was yours an inner city school? 

Nope, I was out in the 'burbs. In fact, a few years ago, that same town was named one of the best places to raise children in Massachusetts.

edit: It wasn't one of the best places, it was noted as the best place in MA!

[crazy canuck]

Actually to demonstrate what a complete idiot you are Marti here is the link for everyone to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej7afkypUsc

[Warspite]

As parents and adults, how do you identify and quantify bullying? How do you know the context to the roughing - for example, that a punch or a push during recess is a one off or part of a systematic targeting of a victim that includes verbal attacks and continues into lessons and after school? We stop seeing things as kids at some point, does that mean we might fail to notice problems that are still there?

I'd also say there's a difference between being near the bottom of the pecking order and being bullied. Easy to confuse the two.

Edit: I'm not sure the fighting-back method always works. I saw enough kids in one of my rougher schools get picked on substantially even when they hit back. Also, schools with strong discipline can end up making this a counter-productive strategy. I nearly got chucked out of one school for 'getting into fights' that were really me trying to stand up to a bully who saw me as an easy target.

You raise a very important point.  Bullying has moved to the internet.  The kinds of bullying that occur now are much more harmful than what we witnessed as kids.  Victims of this new kind of bullying are killing themselves.

It is much more harmful because it no longer involves beating up but now involves words on the internet? I rest my case.

Bullying isn't simply about physical harm - kids hurt themselves much more playing sport or, well, just playing - it's about the victimisation. It's also now scientifically established that there is overlap in the brain between the centres that deal with physical pain and those that deal with social anguish.

So while we can contest the idea that cyber-bullying is 'much more' harmful, I don't think you can contest the idea that it can be harmful and you certainly cannot contest the idea that cyber-bullying is much harder to escape because it follows you out of school.

I've never been subject to cyber-bullying, but I have seen adult friends of mine harassed online, and the stress and anguish it can cause in grown adults - with strong support networks - is real.

[The Brain]

Lots of posters seem to have gone to seriously ghetto schools. Fights? What ages are we talking about here?

[Martinus]

So while we can contest the idea that cyber-bullying is 'much more' harmful, I don't think you can contest the idea that it can be harmful and you certainly cannot contest the idea that cyber-bullying is much harder to escape because it follows you out of school.

While for adults leading a professional life going "offline" may not be an option, I'm pretty sure a school kid can choose to deactivate a Facebook account or an e-mail address.

See, this is what I was talking about before. Sure, if you let it, being called names online can be pretty mean. But people like CC make it sound like it is something that is completely unmanageable and traumatic. I think it is a function of pussification of the society and (possibly) parents leaving their kids unsupported rather than this being this horrible new threat we must combat, on par with Ebola and HIV.