Why are we criminalizing childhood independence?

[Martinus]

Ok, maybe you guys went to schools populated by sociopaths. 

To me "bullying" means kids calling each other a "faggot" or making fun of each other's speech impediments and clothes, not engaging in BDSM rituals.

Naw bullying can also include inviting someone to off themselves.  I am not surprised you have a weak understanding of what bullying might be.

But that would only work on Raz. Don't think if I told Ed Anger or Malthus to off themselves, they would do it.

QED.

Edit: And it also show very well why some people are more bullied than others. Sure, Raz may be vulnerable but he is also fucking annoying and obnoxious.

[Warspite]

So while we can contest the idea that cyber-bullying is 'much more' harmful, I don't think you can contest the idea that it can be harmful and you certainly cannot contest the idea that cyber-bullying is much harder to escape because it follows you out of school.

While for adults leading a professional life going "offline" may not be an option, I'm pretty sure a school kid can choose to deactivate a Facebook account or an e-mail address.

And a school kid can find out what the identity has changed to. But forcing a kid off comms completely sounds like a pretty good victory for the bully, and pretty miserable for the victim. It's analagous to not being able to leave the house for fear of getting a thumping.

See, this is what I was talking about before. Sure, if you let it, being called names online can be pretty mean. But people like CC make it sound like it is something that is completely unmanageable and traumatic. I think it is a function of pussification of the society and (possibly) parents leaving their kids unsupported rather than this being this horrible new threat we must combat, on par with Ebola and HIV.

I'm not sure anyone has compared it in scale or significance to Ebola and HIV. CC made the point that bullying has changed - it has, for the simple reason that the Internet was not as ubiquitous in the past and, moreover, social networks as we now know them did not exist until recently.

Nor is he claiming all bullying is traumatic. He has - correctly, and with evidence - pointed out that it can be. This should not be surprising. Kids, after all, do not have the perspective and experience held by the adults who counsel 'sticks and stones...'.

[derspiess]

That's also why I asked what bullying means in American schools. As I said, from my school days, "bullying" meant, usually kids making fun of other kids, and calling them names. And then I said that when you listen to today's American celebrities, it's as if everyone was severely bullied which left them traumatised. So it must be a cultural thing I guess.

It really does vary by school/city/region.  I was briefly bullied a couple times and it wasn't the end of the world.  First time was settled when I gave one of the two kids a black eye (scared the shit out of second one)-- not long afterward the three of us became best friends.  Second time my older brother dealt with the older kid bullying me.  The former bully and I got along pretty well after that.  Things got sorted out without getting any adults involved.

And my brothers terrorized me constantly, which is what older brothers do, but that just toughened me up.

Bullying can get way out of hand as we see in sensational news stories, but in my life experience I never really saw it.  Berkut and I just have different experiences.

[Malthus]

So while we can contest the idea that cyber-bullying is 'much more' harmful, I don't think you can contest the idea that it can be harmful and you certainly cannot contest the idea that cyber-bullying is much harder to escape because it follows you out of school.

While for adults leading a professional life going "offline" may not be an option, I'm pretty sure a school kid can choose to deactivate a Facebook account or an e-mail address.

See, this is what I was talking about before. Sure, if you let it, being called names online can be pretty mean. But people like CC make it sound like it is something that is completely unmanageable and traumatic. I think it is a function of pussification of the society and (possibly) parents leaving their kids unsupported rather than this being this horrible new threat we must combat, on par with Ebola and HIV.

To my mind, what it boils down to is this: bullying is, in its most basic form, a pathological version of social pressure that every society has (indeed, ought to have). In every society, there is pressure to conform, to not exceed certain boundaries - indeed, the law is the ultimate form this takes.

What bullying does, is use this mechanism, not for enforcing boundaries that make sense functionally, but for the amusement of or to increase the social standing of the bully. The bully may well *appear* to be merely enforcing social conformity, but that is not his or her actual motive - what they are doing, is using social conformity to their advantage. Picking on a kid who has "queer" tastes or behaviours (say) will not necessarily cease if that kid outwardly conforms: it may well continue, because the real purpose is not to enforce conformity, but to build up the bully.

What makes this a problem isn't necessarily the bully him or herself, but the fact that the bully acts with tacit or express approval of the other members of their society (that is, other kids). He or she is playing to an audience. That is why kids cannot easily simply ignore the bullying - to do so would cement their status as an outsider in the society that matters to them.   

In some ways, if bullying was merely a matter of physical fighting, it is easier to deal with - see all the posters claiming that they basically sorted out bullies by simply fighting back. It is a lot more difficult to deal with someone trolling you - you can't just fight it out.

[CountDeMoney]

You raise a very important point.  Bullying has moved to the internet.  The kinds of bullying that occur now are much more harmful than what we witnessed as kids.  Victims of this new kind of bullying are killing themselves.

I don't know, man...maybe for the way girl bullying develops, but I would think that, in dealing with my bully issues as a child I would have had a much more level playing field in retaliating on the internet than I did when I would come home with a black eye.


I told you guys how I had a systemic bully issue from 2nd grade to 7th grade, with my parents getting the school administration involved to no avail, and how I handled it.  I don't know how my solution would fly today, though, but sometimes a kid's got to deal with it on his own and the best thing a parent can do is have his back.

[derspiess]

But forcing a kid off comms completely sounds like a pretty good victory for the bully, and pretty miserable for the victim. It's analagous to not being able to leave the house for fear of getting a thumping.

  Yeah, heaven forbid.

[CountDeMoney]

In some ways, if bullying was merely a matter of physical fighting, it is easier to deal with - see all the posters claiming that they basically sorted out bullies by simply fighting back.

I disagree:  when you're 11 years old, a bully that has 15 lbs and 4" on you has a distinct advantage.  It is not easier to deal with.

[garbon]

But forcing a kid off comms completely sounds like a pretty good victory for the bully, and pretty miserable for the victim. It's analagous to not being able to leave the house for fear of getting a thumping.

  Yeah, heaven forbid.

[crazy canuck]

In some ways, if bullying was merely a matter of physical fighting, it is easier to deal with - see all the posters claiming that they basically sorted out bullies by simply fighting back.

I disagree:  when you're 11 years old, a bully that has 15 lbs and 4" on you has a distinct advantage.  It is not easier to deal with.

I agree Seedy.  Both forms are serious.  Its why I always felt compelled to pull the bully off the other kid.  The point is that both forms are serious but the new form of cyberbullying is causing kids to commit suicide.  It may be that kids who were beat up also committed suicide but we didn't know about it. 

[Razgovory]

Ok, maybe you guys went to schools populated by sociopaths. 

To me "bullying" means kids calling each other a "faggot" or making fun of each other's speech impediments and clothes, not engaging in BDSM rituals.

Naw bullying can also include inviting someone to off themselves.  I am not surprised you have a weak understanding of what bullying might be.

But that would only work on Raz. Don't think if I told Ed Anger or Malthus to off themselves, they would do it.

QED.

Edit: And it also show very well why some people are more bullied than others. Sure, Raz may be vulnerable but he is also fucking annoying and obnoxious.

Hasn't worked yet.

[crazy canuck]

But forcing a kid off comms completely sounds like a pretty good victory for the bully, and pretty miserable for the victim. It's analagous to not being able to leave the house for fear of getting a thumping.

  Yeah, heaven forbid.

One hopes Spicey misread the post when he responded to it.

[Warspite]

In some ways, if bullying was merely a matter of physical fighting, it is easier to deal with - see all the posters claiming that they basically sorted out bullies by simply fighting back.

I disagree:  when you're 11 years old, a bully that has 15 lbs and 4" on you has a distinct advantage.  It is not easier to deal with.

I agree Seedy.  Both forms are serious.  Its why I always felt compelled to pull the bully off the other kid.  The point is that both forms are serious but the new form of cyberbullying is causing kids to commit suicide.  It may be that kids who were beat up also committed suicide but we didn't know about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS91knuzoOA

[crazy canuck]

But that would only work on Raz. Don't think if I told Ed Anger or Malthus to off themselves, they would do it.

QED.

Edit: And it also show very well why some people are more bullied than others. Sure, Raz may be vulnerable but he is also fucking annoying and obnoxious.

Yep, I was pretty sure letting you back was a mistake.

[crazy canuck]

In some ways, if bullying was merely a matter of physical fighting, it is easier to deal with - see all the posters claiming that they basically sorted out bullies by simply fighting back.

I disagree:  when you're 11 years old, a bully that has 15 lbs and 4" on you has a distinct advantage.  It is not easier to deal with.

I agree Seedy.  Both forms are serious.  Its why I always felt compelled to pull the bully off the other kid.  The point is that both forms are serious but the new form of cyberbullying is causing kids to commit suicide.  It may be that kids who were beat up also committed suicide but we didn't know about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS91knuzoOA

Good point.

[derspiess]

In some ways, if bullying was merely a matter of physical fighting, it is easier to deal with - see all the posters claiming that they basically sorted out bullies by simply fighting back. It is a lot more difficult to deal with someone trolling you - you can't just fight it out.

Actually my first situation (first grade) was me being taunted and called names at the bus stop.  They got in my face but never pushed me or anything.  Took place over a few weeks.  Last time one of them got in my face he got a black eye and it ended there.  When we got to school the principal called me into his office to yell at me.  He told me fighting is never the way to solve a problem, that I should have tattled, etc. and I nodded but knew it was all bullshit.  Got away with no formal punishment, though I guess simply getting in trouble and the fear of getting paddled was punishment enough.

But maybe those were different times.  If someone bullied my kids over the internet these days, I guess I'd have to backtrace their location and get the cyber-police involved.  Consequences would never be the same.