Why are we criminalizing childhood independence?

[Berkut]

I do find it ironic the suggestion that to counter the pussification of society we need to encourage more people to be cnuts.

'I imagine for Marty it is more a matter of "Wait, the way I act and acted when I was a kid makes me a douchebag???? NOOOOO! I was not the cunt, it was everyone else!!!!"

I was not a bully as a kid. As I said, I was an awkward, nerdy, gay kid who sucked at sports. I also had a relatively large head and a mild speech impediment. Because of all of this I was given nicknames and the like but I do not view it as something traumatic - that's my entire position in this thread. I was able to get out of it because I had a sense of humour and because I became friends with the most punk rock kid in school.

So as long as you were able to get out of being beaten up and ostracized, then it was ok with you if others were beaten up and ostracized. Yes, this makes you such a better person than an actual bully. In fact, you are arguing that bullies are a good thing, so whether or not YOU bullied anyone or not (and you certainly have on Languish, so we know you mean it when you say it is a positive thing) is immaterial, you think bullies are a good thing, and presumably the only thing stopping you from "harassing" other kids for not talking right, or being weird, or simply not fitting into your mold of what was acceptable was that you didn't have the balls to actually do it yourself, so just cheered on others for taking up that noble social task?

I think you are really project a lot of things unto me here. I'm sorry your childhood was different but it is not my fault.

I think I am judging you on the content of your posts.

[Martinus]

I was not a bully as a kid. As I said, I was an awkward, nerdy, gay kid who sucked at sports. I also had a relatively large head and a mild speech impediment. Because of all of this I was given nicknames and the like but I do not view it as something traumatic - that's my entire position in this thread. I was able to get out of it because I had a sense of humour and because I became friends with the most punk rock kid in school.

And now you're making the world pay as a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

Nah. It could explain my BDSM tendencies, though. 

[derspiess]

Like what?

I guess, phone or face to face communication.  Like what we had as kids.

Example, a team organizes its practices through facebook.  Discussions about the practice and compliments about how well people did fly back and forth along with jokes and the usual kind of banter one expects from team mates.  Sure it might be possible for a kid who is disconnected to find out when the practice time is but they then miss out on all the other social interactions which are occurring.

Wouldn't parents be privy to that?  Or are you saying kids are told about practice times & whatnot and parents are not?

Multiply that across all the other forms of communication that occur everyday on social media.

Okay.  They can live without it.

Kids don't use phones to actually talk to one another anymore.  They text and use social media.

Yep, I've heard that.  But if being plugged into social media is doing more harm than good, wouldn't it make sense as a parent to disconnect the kid from it, at least for a period of time?  I'm not saying do nothing to stop the bullying, btw.  If it's really bad, yeah go after the bully. 

Imo, much better to teach them how to use it properly.  It is going to be a central part of their lives whether you like it or not.  Better for you to teach them what they need to know.

Oh, I'm sure I'll break down at some point.  And I'll make sure they have enough common sense when they do. I don't *think* either of my kids have the type of drama queen type personality that will draw them towards much drama as far as they relate to others-- fingers crossed on that one.

Genuinely curious though at what age most kids are starting on the social media thing.  And what's the latest age they can go without it before they're considered weirdos?

[Berkut]

To my mind, what it boils down to is this: bullying is, in its most basic form, a pathological version of social pressure that every society has (indeed, ought to have). In every society, there is pressure to conform, to not exceed certain boundaries - indeed, the law is the ultimate form this takes.

What bullying does, is use this mechanism, not for enforcing boundaries that make sense functionally, but for the amusement of or to increase the social standing of the bully. The bully may well *appear* to be merely enforcing social conformity, but that is not his or her actual motive - what they are doing, is using social conformity to their advantage. Picking on a kid who has "queer" tastes or behaviours (say) will not necessarily cease if that kid outwardly conforms: it may well continue, because the real purpose is not to enforce conformity, but to build up the bully.

What makes this a problem isn't necessarily the bully him or herself, but the fact that the bully acts with tacit or express approval of the other members of their society (that is, other kids). He or she is playing to an audience. That is why kids cannot easily simply ignore the bullying - to do so would cement their status as an outsider in the society that matters to them.   

In some ways, if bullying was merely a matter of physical fighting, it is easier to deal with - see all the posters claiming that they basically sorted out bullies by simply fighting back. It is a lot more difficult to deal with someone trolling you - you can't just fight it out.

I think this is very apt.

Indeed. As usual, Malthus says what I am trying to say much better than I can.

I did want to add that an important part of childhood bullying is that children don't really get empathy - it has been shown that it is a learned emotion, and many kids just don't really have it - apparently some of us never actually develop it even later in life.

When I was a kid, for whatever reason, I think I had a very well developed sense of empathy, and I can recall actually getting physically ill in 4th grade watching some kids tease another kid at lunchtime - I just did not understand how they could be so cruel to the poor kid when it was obviously really hurting him.

And in this case, they didn't even lay a finger on him. But he had shitty clothes because his family was poor, and his jeans were atrociously generic and didn't fit right, so he was an easy mark. He went home crying, and I am sure Marty would be right there with the pack tormenting him, and now would look back on his actions and think "We did a good job making sure that kid understood that showing up to school in shitty jeans was NOT ACCEPTABLE SOCIAL BEHAVIOR!!!!"

[CountDeMoney]

Genuinely curious though at what age most kids are starting on the social media thing.  And what's the latest age they can go without it before they're considered weirdos?

Some of my nieces' classmates were ramping up as early as 9, although she's had a graduated entry monitored closely by my sister.  I think by 12, if you're not totally plugged in with social media, you're treated worse than I am on Languish about voicemail.   

[garbon]

I am sure Marty would be right there with the pack tormenting him, and now would look back on his actions and think "We did a good job making sure that kid understood that showing up to school in shitty jeans was NOT ACCEPTABLE SOCIAL BEHAVIOR!!!!"

Anna Wintour

[garbon]

Genuinely curious though at what age most kids are starting on the social media thing.  And what's the latest age they can go without it before they're considered weirdos?

Some of my nieces' classmates were ramping up as early as 9, although she's had a graduated entry monitored closely by my sister.  I think by 12, if you're not totally plugged in with social media, you're treated worse than I am on Languish about voicemail.   

One of the worst things you can do is subject someone to a voicemail.

[Eddie Teach]

Some of my nieces' classmates were ramping up as early as 9, although she's had a graduated entry monitored closely by my sister.  I think by 12, if you're not totally plugged in with social media, you're treated worse than I am on Languish about voicemail.   

You mean they still bother to verbally taunt people? I mean, nasty tweets won't have much impact if she's not online to read them. 

[Jacob]

Some of my nieces' classmates were ramping up as early as 9, although she's had a graduated entry monitored closely by my sister.  I think by 12, if you're not totally plugged in with social media, you're treated worse than I am on Languish about voicemail.   

You mean they still bother to verbally taunt people? I mean, nasty tweets won't have much impact if she's not online to read them. 

No they still have an impact, I'm pretty sure.

If half your classmates have been sending nasty tweets about you, they'll be referencing them and snickering about them to your face when you're in school whether you read them or not. You won't even know what they're talking about, so anything you do to defend yourself will be hillarious because you'll be missing the point and the context. You'll be the hillariously ignorant outsider, perfect fodder for another round of mocking tweets for the next day.

[CountDeMoney]

You mean they still bother to verbally taunt people? I mean, nasty tweets won't have much impact if she's not online to read them. 

She's in a private school which, in my observations over the years, has a substantially different social environment from the Hobbesian dystopia of public education that many of us were subjected to at Shawshank High.

[Berkut]

Definition for Marty of what he is so vigorously defending as a necessary social force:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively dominate others. The behavior is often repeated and habitual. One essential prerequisite is the perception, by the bully or by others, of an imbalance of social or physical power. Behaviors used to assert such domination can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion, and such acts may be directed repeatedly towards particular targets. Rationalizations for such behavior sometimes include differences of social class, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, appearance, behavior, body language, personality, reputation, lineage, strength, size or ability

[derspiess]

Spend a lot of time around high schools, Jake?   

[Jacob]

Spend a lot of time around high schools, Jake?   

Nope, but I know how social media and bullying works.

[derspiess]

So I see.

[Martinus]

Some of my nieces' classmates were ramping up as early as 9, although she's had a graduated entry monitored closely by my sister.  I think by 12, if you're not totally plugged in with social media, you're treated worse than I am on Languish about voicemail.   

You mean they still bother to verbally taunt people? I mean, nasty tweets won't have much impact if she's not online to read them. 

No they still have an impact, I'm pretty sure.

If half your classmates have been sending nasty tweets about you, they'll be referencing them and snickering about them to your face when you're in school whether you read them or not. You won't even know what they're talking about, so anything you do to defend yourself will be hillarious because you'll be missing the point and the context. You'll be the hillariously ignorant outsider, perfect fodder for another round of mocking tweets for the next day.

Dear God! We need to ban the Internets!