Europe's Populist Left

[Martinus]

I'm a huge fan of Chomsky.   Well, his linguistic work.  I actually forget what his weirdo politics are, probably not centrally-controlled enough.

I like Stone's movies, too. That does not make him any less a political lunatic either.

[Ideologue]

Podemos is just a few months old, and to be honest their actual politics are still muddled and confused - which is best for them since any angry Spaniard can then imagine them as the party they'd wish them to be. They talk a lot about street-level democracy but they are big statists in practice - at least going off stuff in their program.

No mention of implementing a surveillance state, though, sorry.

Their Wiki entry mentions something vague about no "intelligence gathering," but I understood that to mean "foreign intelligence gathering."

Mart: I recall Chomsky is left, but the kind of "blah blah rights" left that has important things to say about human freedom, but not a ton about directly increasing human happiness.

[Razgovory]

Spending vs the Austerity.

Where should Greece and friends have gotten the money to spend?

Presumably the same places where other countries get money.  Tamas was talking about the dichotomy of austerity and spending.  For some reason you assumed this involved default.

[Admiral Yi]

Presumably the same places where other countries get money.  Tamas was talking about the dichotomy of austerity and spending.  For some reason you assumed this involved default.

Most countries get it from the international bond market.  Investors were not interested in lending any more money to Greece.

[Admiral Yi]

Mart: I recall Chomsky is left, but the kind of "blah blah rights" left that has important things to say about human freedom, but not a ton about directly increasing human happiness.

He's a full time Amerikkka basher.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

is there a left that isn't populist when push comes to shove?

[Jacob]

is there a left that isn't populist when push comes to shove?

Uh... yes? Any number of champagne-socialists and vanguardist revolutionaries are not populist at all. You can say many bad things about various Trotskyists, for example, but they're far from populist in spite of what the wish and proclaim.

[Admiral Yi]

is there a left that isn't populist when push comes to shove?

I would say in order to be truly populist you have to engage in policies that are unsustainable.  For example you can't throw borrowed money at your supporters forever, because soon no one will lend to you.  You can't price your labor out of the market forever, because soon no one will buy your stuff.  You can't steal from the rich forever, because eventually you run out of rich people.

[Admiral Yi]

No, takes backs.  That doesn't work.

[Sheilbh]

is there a left that isn't populist when push comes to shove?

Yeah. To add to Jacob's point there's loads of establishment left parties.

I don't think anyone could reasonably describe Labour or the SPD for example of populism.

[Jacob]

I would say in order to be truly populist you have to engage in policies that are unsustainable.  For example you can't throw borrowed money at your supporters forever, because soon no one will lend to you.  You can't price your labor out of the market forever, because soon no one will buy your stuff.  You can't steal from the rich forever, because eventually you run out of rich people.

My definition of populist is something like "craft your message to appeal to uninformed prejudice, emotions, and shallow understanding of the broad masses." While that often involves spending money irresponsibly, it doesn't inherently mean "stealing from the rich". Populism can be (and often is) based on things other than economics - basically anything where simple "common sense" solutions to complex issues sound appealing to broad swathes of people (f. ex. immigration, drugs, crime & punishment, foreign policy).

On the economic front, while it's definitely true that "more spending on all social goods for justice! Paid for by the rich!" is populist, so is "less taxes on everything, less government!" It's possible to have nuanced positions and principles on changes to social spending and taxation levels in either direction compared to the status quo, and it is possible to be a populist in either direction; it all depends on how you phrase your position and how it plays with the populace.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. Populism is a style of politics, not an ideology. Alexis Tsipras is a populist, so's Nigel Farage.

More importantly it's a symptom of a diseased body politic - not its cause.

[Berkut]

Indeed. Yi's "definition" strikes me as an attempt to definte populism to it only applies to the populists he doesn't like...

The current Tea Party inanity, for example, is certainly populist. A perfect example is the right's current views on immigration. Pure populism of the worst kind, IMO.

[Jacob]

Basically, if you're riling up the people (or tapping into pre-existing somewhat incoherent dissatisfaction) and going on about how the system is messed up and these basic, common-sense solutions that you're proposing will make things better you're a populist (if your message resonates with sectors of the populace).

The various anti-EU, anti-immigrant parties that have risen across Europe are populist, for example, and their economic policies don't follow any particularly clear line as far as I can tell (other than generally favouring the interests of the population groups that buy into - or are likely to buy into - the anti-EU or anti-immigrant line).

[Norgy]

So when should we expect this barmy army of merry populists to take office?