Europe's Populist Left

[Sheilbh]

Doesn't matter, point is they need to pay for it, and Greeks don't pay taxes.

In large part because of the patronage politics of PASOK and ND. Even if you don't support Syriza's policies, I think it's inevitable that any change to the corrupt status quo has to come from outside the political groups who built it and benefited from it.

[alfred russel]

Syriza's 2012 programme emphasised – as well as anti-austerity policies – demands like drug decriminalisation, de-militarisation of the police, withdrawal from Nato and recognition of Palestine.

They just lost my vote. 

Fucking Putipologists.

Breaking military ties with the west (while Turkey maintains them) would not seem to advance the Megali Idea or help them achieve enosis with Cyprus. 

[Martinus]

In Greece, perhaps, but their politics has been pretty scary most of the time. Elsewhere, I doubt it.

Yeah.

The story in the rest of Europe is fragmentation and the hollowing out and subsequent collapse of the mainstream. Which isn't necessarily 1930s but is still pretty grim.

Personally, I think we will see the Obama effect play out in Europe as well - i.e. the outpouring of idealism / radicalism (depending on your perspective) ending up with the extremes being either compromised by their inability to govern or subsumed into the mainstream. So a bit of turbulence and things getting back to normal in 5-10 years.

Edit: We may see some change at the regulatory level, in the same way pre-war liberals adopted some socialist ideas. E.g. the Tobin tax adopted at the EU level (which would be a good thing).

[Iormlund]

... Even if you don't support Syriza's policies, I think it's inevitable that any change to the corrupt status quo has to come from outside the political groups who built it and benefited from it.

And the same can be said of Podemos. Their program is downright scary. But they are the only realistic alternative to PP-PSOE, and that's the one thing that matters for most.

[Admiral Yi]

Their program is downright scary.

Please elaborate.

[Sheilbh]

Personally, I think we will see the Obama effect play out in Europe as well - i.e. the outpouring of idealism / radicalism (depending on your perspective) ending up with the extremes being either compromised by their inability to govern or subsumed into the mainstream. So a bit of turbulence and things getting back to normal in 5-10 years.

I'm not sure how that analysis works on Obama.

Of course most of the radicals can choose not to govern, or be subjected to a cordon sanitaire (ie. the Left in Germany) which strengthens them.

Even if they get subsumed into the mainstream that does suggest a significantly more radical politics - see Ed Miliband and David Cameron who are both more worried about losing their core vote than trying to appeal to a majority.

And of course the other issue is that for the countries on the periphery political choice has been bled dry because of the Euro crisis. The choice is who presides over, broadly, identical policies. So long as that lasts then people faced with that farce of a democratic choice will inevitably start to go somewhere else.

Edit: I mean really what's the point of an election if the Central Bank sends this sort of letter:
http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/2011-08-05-letter-from-trichet-and-fernandez-ordonez-to-zapateroen.pdf

And the same can be said of Podemos. Their program is downright scary. But they are the only realistic alternative to PP-PSOE, and that's the one thing that matters for most.

Yeah. I think it's easy to say the Greeks are silly to be voting for Syriza but you look at the alternatives and I'd be voting for them. Two or three corrupt parties, Nazis or Stalinists.

[Sheilbh]

Their program is downright scary.

Please elaborate.

Lots of Chavez-Maduro love from the leader

[Iormlund]

Their program is downright scary.

Please elaborate.

It reads like a pamphlet written by a teenager. Full of promises of more money for everyone.

For example, they want to bring retirement age down to 60. That alone would bankrupt Social Security (pensions already make up 40% of the budget).

[The Brain]

We tried Socialism in Sweden and it didn't work.

[Zanza]

Of course most of the radicals can choose not to govern, or be subjected to a cordon sanitaire (ie. the Left in Germany) which strengthens them.

The Left Party in Germany participates in two state governments at the moment, leading one of them. They aren't isolated on the municipal or state level, it's just that their policies on the federal level are really not compatible with those of the other left parties (Social Democrats, Greens).

[Eddie Teach]

We tried Socialism in Sweden and it didn't work.

When did you stop?

[alfred russel]

Small less advanced countries get in trouble with debt; effectively cede soveriegnty to bigger wealthier countries and are unhappy.

It isnt a new story.

[Norgy]

Small less advanced countries get in trouble with debt; effectively cede soveriegnty to bigger wealthier countries and are unhappy.

Spain is hardly a small and less advanced country. Really. Albania might be. Bhutan is. But not Spain.

[The Larch]

Their program is downright scary.

Please elaborate.

It reads like a pamphlet written by a teenager. Full of promises of more money for everyone.

For example, they want to bring retirement age down to 60. That alone would bankrupt Social Security (pensions already make up 40% of the budget).

If you mean their platform for the european elections they must have realised themselves how much of a pie in the sky it was and backtracked (or refined their plans if you feel generous) to make it more palatable and/or realistic. IIRC Iglesias himself said that he felt comfortable if their updated platform was labeled as a socialdemocrat one.

[alfred russel]

Small less advanced countries get in trouble with debt; effectively cede soveriegnty to bigger wealthier countries and are unhappy.

Spain is hardly a small and less advanced country. Really. Albania might be. Bhutan is. But not Spain.

I was trying to respond to a previous post commenting about the point of greek elections, but hard to quote on my phone. Agree about spain.