European Islamophobia

[Martinus]

I dislike Islam in roughly the same way that I dislike Communism. It is a disagreeable ideology that works against a free society, is oppressive to women and, at its extremes, is murderous.

I have met both communists and muslims that are good people of course.

That is 100% how I feel. Apparently, according to some people, that makes us islamophobic/racist.

Islamophobia isn't racism, but they do share some attributes.

The main issue is one of distorted thinking, of not seeing things as they are, but based on a negative set of generalizations based on extreme examples - conflating a large and confusing mass of contradictory data down into a simple story defined by its worst and most extreme elements. 

For example, a person who hated Christianity could point to the abortion clinic murders, the child sex scandals in the Catholic Church, the Ugandan death threats against gays, and the like. The problem of course is that not all Christians are the same, and sharing the same religion (at least in name) does not make (say) a unitarian minister type responsible for, or approving of, Catholic child sex scandals.

But that's not the case at all.

I don't dislike Islam only (or mainly) because of terrorist attacks or the actions of ISIL and the like - I dislike Islam because of what its core tenets say, about the subordinate role of women, about gays, and the like (to use your example of Uganda - homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries, but not in most Christian countries). The violence committed by its members are just an "icing on the cake" for me.

For the same reason I dislike some forms of fundamentalist Christianity - but also recognise that there are many more positive elements in Christianity/Gospels than there are in Islam.

[Razgovory]

Is it really "bigoted" to dislike an ideology?

I mean, Europeans put people in camps, that's their thing.  But just disliking Islam or worrying that Muslims may attain organized political power is not bigotry any more than disliking Christianity or worrying at the demonstrated negative outcomes Christians with organized political power have effected in the U.S.

It is bigotry to dislike people because of their religion.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

[Valmy]

It is bigotry to dislike people because of their religion.

But is it bigotry to dislike their religion?  Where does one draw the line?  It seems like if we take that to its conclusion it is bigoted to dislike any idea.

[Razgovory]

But that's not the case at all.

I don't dislike Islam only (or mainly) because of terrorist attacks or the actions of ISIL and the like - I dislike Islam because of what its core tenets say, about the subordinate role of women, about gays, and the like (to use your example of Uganda - homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries, but not in most Christian countries). The violence committed by its members are just an "icing on the cake" for me.

For the same reason I dislike some forms of fundamentalist Christianity - but also recognise that there are many more positive elements in Christianity/Gospels than there are in Islam.

Would it be fair to dislike gays because of you dislike the core concept of homosexuality?  Would violence committed by gays just be "icing on the cake"?

[Valmy]

Would it be fair to dislike gays because of you dislike the core concept of homosexuality?

Why wouldn't it be?  Of course I am not sure what a core concept of a sexuality might be.

[Razgovory]

It is bigotry to dislike people because of their religion.

But is it bigotry to dislike their religion?  Where does one draw the line?  It seems like if we take that to its conclusion it is bigoted to dislike any idea.

Let's draw it far behind where Viking stands.

[Razgovory]

Would it be fair to dislike gays because of you dislike the core concept of homosexuality?

Why wouldn't it be?  Of course I am not sure what a core concept of a sexuality might be.

Let's say I don't like gays because I have a principled stand against men sucking cock.  Would that make me a bigot?  I think that's fair enough.

[Malthus]

I dislike Islam in roughly the same way that I dislike Communism. It is a disagreeable ideology that works against a free society, is oppressive to women and, at its extremes, is murderous.

I have met both communists and muslims that are good people of course.

That is 100% how I feel. Apparently, according to some people, that makes us islamophobic/racist.

Islamophobia isn't racism, but they do share some attributes.

The main issue is one of distorted thinking, of not seeing things as they are, but based on a negative set of generalizations based on extreme examples - conflating a large and confusing mass of contradictory data down into a simple story defined by its worst and most extreme elements. 

For example, a person who hated Christianity could point to the abortion clinic murders, the child sex scandals in the Catholic Church, the Ugandan death threats against gays, and the like. The problem of course is that not all Christians are the same, and sharing the same religion (at least in name) does not make (say) a unitarian minister type responsible for, or approving of, Catholic child sex scandals.

But that's not the case at all.

I don't dislike Islam only (or mainly) because of terrorist attacks or the actions of ISIL and the like - I dislike Islam because of what its core tenets say, about the subordinate role of women, about gays, and the like (to use your example of Uganda - homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries, but not in most Christian countries). The violence committed by its members are just an "icing on the cake" for me.

For the same reason I dislike some forms of fundamentalist Christianity - but also recognise that there are many more positive elements in Christianity/Gospels than there are in Islam.

Islam's "core tenents" on homosexuality are exactly the same as those of Christianity and Judaism - and in fact are based on them: for example, the primary source on homosexuality is quoted as follows:

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"Lut" = Lot; this is a reference to the OT story about Sodom (a story also, as you know, influential on Jews and Christians).

All three religions, traditionally and by their 'core beliefs', condemned male homosexuality, in similar terms. The main difference is how modern-day religious people enforce such prohibitions. All three religions have what may be broadly called "liberal" variants that contend that gay is okay (or at least not punishable). The difference is that most of the Islamic population is located in dark-ages-type countries and follows harsher varieties of the creed.

As can be seen, of Muslim-majority countries, the legal situation varies a lot, but in general majority Islamic countries are retarded in this respect (as in many others) when compared with the West:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

This is mostly a matter of the relative retardation of culture in those countries. In medieval times straight through to the modern era, the situation was exactly the reverse: better to have been a gay Turk or Persian circa 1800, than a gay Englishman in 1950 - witness Alan Turing.

In short, there is no rational reason to prefer the "cire tenents" of Christianity of Judaism over those of Islam when it comes to homosexuality, as they are the same.

[Viking]

Is it really "bigoted" to dislike an ideology?

I mean, Europeans put people in camps, that's their thing.  But just disliking Islam or worrying that Muslims may attain organized political power is not bigotry any more than disliking Christianity or worrying at the demonstrated negative outcomes Christians with organized political power have effected in the U.S.

It is bigotry to dislike people because of their religion.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

is it bigoted to dislike nazis?

[Viking]

Malthus seems to be under the impression that Jewish law was all transferred to Christianity. Uncircumcised christian bacon eaters would disagree.

[Jacob]

It is bigotry to dislike people because of their religion.

But is it bigotry to dislike their religion?  Where does one draw the line?  It seems like if we take that to its conclusion it is bigoted to dislike any idea.

It depends on what is covered by "dislike their religion"; why and especially how matters.

Say you dislike a religion that is not your own because in your observation, believers tend towards a behaviour you find unpleasant. When talking about it, a bigot will consistently focus on the link between the behaviour and the religion, a non-bigot will not; when attempting to combat the behaviour, the bigot will focus on the link to the religion and try to combat the religion, the non-bigots will not; and when meeting new people belonging to the religion, the bigot will assume they approve of and indulge in the behaviour (perhaps secretly), the non-bigot will not.

It's the difference between noting a correlation and assuming causality.

[Malthus]

Malthus seems to be under the impression that Jewish law was all transferred to Christianity. Uncircumcised christian bacon eaters would disagree.

Much of it in fact was. Christianity looks to Jewish laws taken from the OT, just not all of them: for example, most Christians believe in the 10 Commandments, and people would look at you funny if you claimed they didn't apply to Christians because they were "Jewish".

As it happens, homosexuality happens to be a case where, until modern liberalism, Christianity *did* look to Jewish law; and they had at least some support in the Gospels for this.

[Razgovory]

is it bigoted to dislike nazis?

I don't think National Socialism is a religion.  Now you could say you dislike certain ideologies that are informed by religions.  For instance Rexism.

[Viking]

is it bigoted to dislike nazis?

I don't think National Socialism is a religion.  Now you could say you dislike certain ideologies that are informed by religions.  For instance Rexism.

So one set of ideas gains special protection because that idea is that it is supernatural?

[Viking]

Malthus seems to be under the impression that Jewish law was all transferred to Christianity. Uncircumcised christian bacon eaters would disagree.

Much of it in fact was. Christianity looks to Jewish laws taken from the OT, just not all of them: for example, most Christians believe in the 10 Commandments, and people would look at you funny if you claimed they didn't apply to Christians because they were "Jewish".

As it happens, homosexuality happens to be a case where, until modern liberalism, Christianity *did* look to Jewish law; and they had at least some support in the Gospels for this.

No christians believe in the 10 commandments, they believe in 9 of them and split one into to to keep the number nice and round. The reason tolerance of shrimp eating, pork eating, ass fucking, sunday working etc.etc. is that Christianity has rarely held the position that the jewish law applies. At best they argue that the jewish law is helpful in understanding the nature of god and what is sin... which of course is done as if the law were a buffet where they pick and choose.