Making better humans, or rather, making less-bad ones

[Ideologue]

America.  I've always wondered why CC had such strong feelings about an issue that doesn't affect him, but whatever.  I'm used to foreigners getting bent about American politics.

I don't know if the Canadian model is even that similar.  Your SLs can be discharged in bankruptcy, for example.

So you're doing the thing where you talk only about the US, but you use universal arguments to do so. Because when you talk about the value of STEM and the uselessness of the humanities, as is your wont, you typically do so in terms relating to the inherent values of those fields rather than how they fit into the education systems and economy of the US at present.

I speak universally in the sense I'm speaking about any country that forces young adults to debt-finance their way into a shot at a middle-class lifestyle, without either a market mechanism or strong central planning to ensure that waste is minimized, and that the efforts of student and taxpayer provide a return on their investment of time and money.  Does this apply to Canada?  Then congratulations, Canada sucks.  I don't know if this is so, because I don't live there, and have not studied Canada's system closely.  I have studied the American case, and it is just awful.

[dps]

Nobody's forced to take student loans.  At least not in any American jurisdiction AFAIK.  Canada might be different.

[Ideologue]

Yeah, if I had my druthers, I'd abort my kids till I got a girl

The 21st century will favor the feminine over the masculine.  This is, by and large, a good thing, but the transition will be miserable.  Therefore, I want my kid to be on the right side.  Further, we've seen the male version of me.  It's tremendously dysfunctional, in large part due to Y-chromosome related behavioral difficulties, notably aggression and impulsiveness.

[Ideologue]

Nobody's forced to take student loans.  At least not in any American jurisdiction AFAIK.  Canada might be different.

You have a very narrow definition of the word "forced."  Nobody is "forced" to participate in the economy at all.  There does remain a freedom to starve.

[crazy canuck]

Nobody's forced to take student loans.  At least not in any American jurisdiction AFAIK.  Canada might be different.

I think what you are saying is that nobody is forced to go to university.  Unless students come from wealthy families or obtain full ride scholarships they are most certainly forced to pay for their education by going into debt.

[Jacob]

But I can't even discuss this with prospective partners--because the topic itself is forbidden.  Yeah, if I had my druthers, I'd abort my kids till I got a girl, specifically, without any physical, behavioral or cognitive impairments.

This is a bit puzzling to me, to be honest. Have you ever seriously considered having kids with somebody? I mean, if you're bringing it up after the second fuck or whatever, when things are supposed to be all about the passion of the budding relationship (or the casual disposable sex, because it takes a bit to sort out which it is) then yeah, people will look at you as if you're some sort of obsessed weirdo, because that is in fact an obsessive weirdo thing to talk about at that point in time.

The time for talking about that sort of stuff is some time after you've decided that yes, you're going to try to get pregnant right now. Certainly, my wife and I had conversations about what we'd do if there were problems detected with the foetus. It's certainly part of the conversations you have with the doctors. If the woman is over a certain age, there's a higher risk of down's syndrome for example, which can be tested for; but the test (extracting amniotic fluid, for example) carries a small risk of doing damage to the foetus, which while small is greater than the risk for down's in younger women - so you have to decide how you manage that risk and prepare for the consequences.

Those choices, and decisions, are very personal however. So you definitely should be able to discuss them with your partner, once having kids is a serious consideration; the fact that you have not been able to have those discussions may indicate a bad fit. On the other hand, the fact that you approach such a personal and vital thing in a way that sounds like intellectual masturbation for the sake of iconoclastic position taking, may put some of the onus for the bad fit on you.

People totally decide to abort foetuses for severe developmental problems, though others decide not to. That's soft eugenics in a way, yes.

That's not the issue. The issue is that you frame the discussion about something so very personal, something that shapes the lives of the people involved profoundly and touches on core philosophical and ethical values, as one where the right and wrong decision should be set by the state rather than the individuals affected; and what's more, you suggest that it should be done on trivial grounds, and insist on following it out into all kinds of far fetched hypotheticals (like "the potential to be depressed").

[MadImmortalMan]

Nobody's forced to take student loans.  At least not in any American jurisdiction AFAIK.  Canada might be different.

You have a very narrow definition of the word "forced."  Nobody is "forced" to participate in the economy at all.  There does remain a freedom to starve.

Better to starve on your feet than live on your knees with student loans. 

[Jacob]

I speak universally in the sense I'm speaking about any country that forces young adults to debt-finance their way into a shot at a middle-class lifestyle, without either a market mechanism or strong central planning to ensure that waste is minimized, and that the efforts of student and taxpayer provide a return on their investment of time and money.  Does this apply to Canada?  Then congratulations, Canada sucks.  I don't know if this is so, because I don't live there, and have not studied Canada's system closely.  I have studied the American case, and it is just awful.

You say that now, but when you talk shit about the humanities and fine arts you leave out all of that. If you were actually concerned about America, you'd think you'd spend more time looking at ways you can alter the system rather than valorizing STEM to ridiculous degrees and denigrating the humanities (which you do whenever they come up, including in contexts outside of the US).

[MadImmortalMan]

I speak universally in the sense I'm speaking about any country that forces young adults to debt-finance their way into a shot at a middle-class lifestyle, without either a market mechanism or strong central planning to ensure that waste is minimized, and that the efforts of student and taxpayer provide a return on their investment of time and money.  Does this apply to Canada?  Then congratulations, Canada sucks.  I don't know if this is so, because I don't live there, and have not studied Canada's system closely.  I have studied the American case, and it is just awful.

You say that now, but when you talk shit about the humanities and fine arts you leave out all of that. If you were actually concerned about America, you'd think you'd spend more time looking at ways you can alter the system rather than valorizing STEM to ridiculous degrees and denigrating the humanities (which you do whenever they come up, including in contexts outside of the US).

I think it's really more a question of making them all cheaper so people don't have to do such an ROI analysis on their schooling.

[garbon]

The 21st century will favor the feminine over the masculine.  This is, by and large, a good thing, but the transition will be miserable.

Proof of this assertion? And what sort of timeline are you looking at for such a shift to occur?

Further, we've seen the male version of me.  It's tremendously dysfunctional, in large part due to Y-chromosome related behavioral difficulties, notably aggression and impulsiveness.

Well a child isn't a clone - so it seems a little silly to think about this when only your side of the genetics is potentially known. And I say potentially as it seems you are just choosing to attribute those behaviors to your genetics.

[Jacob]

I think it's really more a question of making them all cheaper so people don't have to do such an ROI analysis on their schooling.

That sounds much more sensible, yes.

You'd think someone like Ide would be all over the German example (free university tuition) rather than be all invested in eliminating education that doesn't immediately lead to jobs that can repay exorbitant student loans. But no, instead of actually attempting to address tuition, he goes tilting at humanities windmills.

[Siege]

Responses related to my sad-sackery can be directed to me elsewhere.  I know I have no place in any better world.
[...]
Oh, and I suppose it would increase government spending.  Feel free to also discuss aborting shitty babies in a private context, without federal funding.

Curing genetic diseases, I'm ok with it.
Deciding a baby's eyes color while in the womb, giving him 6 fingers, increased intelligence, muscle coordination, etc, I'd be against it.

Ok, I understand being against stupid shit like giving a kid a physical or mental disadvantage, like those two lesbian hags trying to have a deaf child. But why do you oppose healthier, smarter, stronger, and better looking kids?

Natural selection. When people start having superkids those who decide to be "natural" will give their kids a disadvantage and will eventually be breed out.

Besides, there is nothing natural about humankind. We have been effing with nature for a very long time. We have been mixing with our technology from the very beginning. Or do you think domesticated plants and animals are that productive because of nature?

People say, "hey kid, you are playing too much with that Xbox. Go and read a book", like if writing was not THE most important technology man ever invented, which allowed everything else we had since.

Everything is technology. Our friggin clothes are artificial skin, airplanes are time machines to bump you across thousand of miles in hours, domestication of the cow the greatest energy revolution, converting solar energy into calories for us, and even our smartphones are memory and processing upgrades for our brains, or do you remember all those phone numbers in your phone's memory? How ever used its calculator? What about googling information? Smartphones are brain upgrades. External upgrade, granted, but still...

[Razgovory]

Serious question:  Would it be better to treat a fetus in the womb to prevent undesirable traits rather then just abort them?

[CountDeMoney]

Serious question:  Would it be better to treat a fetus in the womb to prevent undesirable traits rather then just abort them?

They do that now.

[Jacob]

Ok, I understand being against stupid shit like giving a kid a physical or mental disadvantage, like those two lesbian hags trying to have a deaf child. But why do you oppose healthier, smarter, stronger, and better looking kids?

You have a kid, right?

So, the scenario that's being proposed is that when your wife is pregnant they run some tests and they come back with a report like this: "likely to be of average intelligence, brown eyes, 15% chance of being an impulsive chucklehead, with high disposition towards obesity, and a 4% chance of retaining teenage angst well into his 30s."

Government standards say that for a foetus to be considered viable, it needs to have less than 5% chance of being a chucklehead and less than 5% of long lasting teenage angst, unless there's a blue-eye exemption (rare trait that we've decided is good looking) or the kid looks likely to have high or better intelligence.

So as a result, government policy mandates that the foetus is aborted. If you want a kid, please try again and hope that it tests better.

Ide was not proposing some sort of magic engineering that'll somehow make everybody's kids smarter and better looking; he was proposing a set of government tests and standards and if the kid doesn't score high enough policy mandates that the foetus is aborted independently of the parents wishes.

I don't know about you, but for me that's not something I think is a good idea, even if Ide promises it'll improve the species or whatever.