CIA Report

[Martinus]

I guess - it is probably like Polish people believing we are "the Christ of Nations" and the nation "most victimised by others" in the history of humanity. Never mind it is dysfunctional bullshit.

Except it is not dysfunctional.  It is why this report exists and people like Berkut and I, amongst others, are demanding we be better.  It is why this country is still worth something.

Well ok it is a little dysfunctional.

It is, or can be, as Malthus pointed out. Our own "Christ of nations" can also be imagined to be functional - for example we had this idea at one point of Poland becoming a "mentor" for other nations coming out of oppressive regimes peacefully and reaching reconciliation internally and whatnot. That would be cool. Sadly, that got drowned by incriminations.

Trust people to fuck up every ideal.

[Razgovory]

No shit.

Cheney on Meet the Press:

Asked to define torture after reiterating that they did not engage in torture - ""an American citizen on his cellphone making a last call to his four young daughters shortly before he burns to death in the upper levels of the Trade Center in New York on 9/11."

That is so completely fucked up on so very many level it isn't even funny. It is fucking terrifying.

You know, if we accept, for the sake of argument, that there is something exceptional about America, that our national myth of exceptionalism has some basis in reality, then this argument, that what we did was ok because of what happened on 9/11, is basically saying that the terrorists who executed that attack succeeded 100% in their goals.

If there is something special about America, then what terrorists want to accomplish is force the US to stop being exceptional, to force the US to be just another unexceptional nation without particular values or idealism that differentiate it in any way. And throwing out those values because of a terrorist attack would in fact be precisely the point of that attack.

Do people like Cheney simply not see that? It seems kind of obvious to me. And people like Cheney are the ones who seem most enamored with the idea of American exceptional-ism, and yet so quick to be ready to abandon it as needed to serve even the most short term of goals. I don't doubt that Cheney really does believe the bullshit he is shoveling, which is why I find men like him so frightening. He really does believe he is right, and is not even capable of considering the idea that he could be, or could have been, wrong.

This is how evil is done. Not by evil men, but by men who really believe that they are serving a greater good.

Honestly, I see this more as a form of misdirection.

"How do you define torture?"
"Think of 9-11!"

Cheney's statements are meant to appeal to "tough guy" voters.  People who like strong displays of bravado.  People who believe that torture is fine since the people being tortured are already terrorists, people who want to throw out all the illegal immigrants simple as that, people who believe that the penalty to any crime is to either execute a person or put them in a tiny cell and throw away the key.  Essentially people who confuse action movies for real life and are proudly, aggressively, and belligerently ignorant.  Remember Strix?  It's people like that.  We have some of those people here now, but I'm not going to shame them.  You know who they are.

[Ed Anger]

Me! Me!

[Siege]

My FBI polygraph was a hoot.  The dude seriously thought I was lying about past drug use and being contacted by a foreign intelligence organization.

LOL, FBI is a totally different set of noodleheads.  I have a buddy that passed 3 agency polys including the Maryland State Police and Fairfax County PD, and yet it was his poly for the FBI that the polygrapher insisted he was lying about his previous drug use.  Now this is the guy that wouldn't drink beer with us in college until he was 21, mind you.  Famous But Incompetent.

I've always done well with polygraphs.
I don't think they really work.

[CountDeMoney]

Your masters in Beijing have trained you well.

[Ed Anger]

Seedy's avatar and text: 

[KRonn]

You quoted the Economist as if it meant something.  Exposing dirty laundry is useful if it brings about change, otherwise it's just bragging.

Okay, and to repeat: we stopped this in 2009. Change has already happened. Of course we had already discussed this issue publicly in 2008, which is why I believe the Senate report was ill advised political theater.

I'm coming around to agree with this, even while I'm really angry that some of the nasty stuff was done in the first place and I cringe at some of the techniques. Laws were put in place to end this stuff years ago. So after this report we have people under threat, Americans and others, told to leave their homes. This report seems like self flagellation. We knew this stuff before, so what is the purpose of rehashing this again? Then some complaints I'm hearing is that those putting out the report didn't speak to the CIA, nor to others who worked on this. Our politicians are being deceitful since they signed off on what was done. AG Holder apparently looked into this before and determined that there would be no charges since the procedures were legal and rarely done.

[CountDeMoney]

Seedy's avatar and text: 

Sometimes I'm just feeling Sam Neill.

[Razgovory]

My FBI polygraph was a hoot.  The dude seriously thought I was lying about past drug use and being contacted by a foreign intelligence organization.

LOL, FBI is a totally different set of noodleheads.  I have a buddy that passed 3 agency polys including the Maryland State Police and Fairfax County PD, and yet it was his poly for the FBI that the polygrapher insisted he was lying about his previous drug use.  Now this is the guy that wouldn't drink beer with us in college until he was 21, mind you.  Famous But Incompetent.

I've always done well with polygraphs.
I don't think they really work.

There is a minimal threshold for neural activity required in those.