CIA Report

[11B4V]

I guess, for me, we start here.

Was EIT legal at the time?

My (very simplistic) understanding is that it was declared legal at the time, but that declaration was wrong - that that declaration was either illegal itself, based on lies, or otherwise faulty. The issue with prosecuting this is that the responsible parties are high up enough that it would be an inherently political process; furthermore, I *think* the appropriate bodies for prosecution would be the Senate and/ Congress (i.e. some kind of hearings need to be convened), which is unlikely at the moment.

... that's my impression, but I'm very far from an expert on this, so I'd welcome any corrections/ elaborations from anyone who knows this better.

Is your concern here primarily about legality and prosecution? Do you have any thoughts on the morality of it?

Personally I would like to see prosecutions and legal sanctions enacted, but (based on my limited understanding) that is unlikely. Nonetheless, I'm quite concerned with the moral part of it as well, and it concerns me to see the US having engaged in this level of... well, I think depravity is a fairly accurate description.

Not disagreeing with your statement. If they don't prosecute, it's nothing but bullshit political games started by Feinstein. Do you really think the vast majority of the American public gives a shit at this point? IMO, no. It's not on their radar.

[derspiess]

Political BS

Well, yeah.  It is a partisan report.

[crazy canuck]

So when are they prosecuting.

Is that gonna happen?

I've been told elsewhere that it is unlikely to happen for political reasons... what do you all think? Will it be shock and disgust and eventually it'll go away? Or will there be actual repercussions for the responsible parties?

What's the point of releasing the report if no prosecutions are going to follow? I am asking seriously - this is not a rhetorical question.

To learn from past mistakes.  And this is a big lesson to learn.

[11B4V]

So when are they prosecuting.

Is that gonna happen?

I've been told elsewhere that it is unlikely to happen for political reasons... what do you all think? Will it be shock and disgust and eventually it'll go away? Or will there be actual repercussions for the responsible parties?

What's the point of releasing the report if no prosecutions are going to follow? I am asking seriously - this is not a rhetorical question.

To learn from past mistakes.  And this is a big lesson to learn.

The US Government doesn't learn from it's past mistakes. Silly canuk.

[Jacob]

Not disagreeing with your statement. If they don't prosecute, it's nothing but bullshit political games started by Feinstein. Do you really think the vast majority of the American public gives a shit at this point? IMO, no. It's not on their radar.

Yeah, there's definitely a political dimension to this, but I'm not sure that should make it off limits.

For one, personally, I think this is serious enough that it should be addressed and if the only way that's gonna happen is to put it into the political arena (and it seems it is), then I think it's legitimate. If the American public ultimately decides that they don't give a fuck, then they don't and there you have the new American normal - depraved and pointless torture is okay on some occasions.

Alternately, this political play could lead to some sort of political action - maybe McCain gets enough Republicans on board and something can happen across party lines - that results in responsible parties actually seeing legal sanction. I don't know how likely it is, but the possibility is there which makes it worthwhile even from a looking-for-prosecutions-perspective. Ultimately, in my view, this situation is big enough that the proper arena for handling it is the political arena; is this kind of torture acceptable for the US? That's a political question. It's one I'd hoped was beyond the pale to ask, with the answer being a resounding NO, but that seems less certain now.

So basically, I agree with you that it is political, but I disagree that it is bullshit. I think this shit is important.

[Jacob]

Political BS

Well, yeah.  It is a partisan report.

Yeah maybe it is a partisan report, but I don't know how much that really changes things. I mean, does the fact that it may be a partisan report mean that innocents weren't tortured or that guilty people weren't subjected to depraved torture for no useful purposes? Or does the partisan nature of the report mean that those actions were justified?

Because there is plenty of room to make those arguments in response to the report - that the torture either didn't happen (which seems doubtful) or that it was justified (though it'll be pretty hard to convince me personally).

So what changes about this if we accept that the report is partisan?

[Admiral Yi]

The possibility of partisanship raises in turn the possibility that the characterizations are not objective, but rather slanted to drive a particular narrative.

To me the Feinstein report has two objectives: to say that the CIA (and by extension their bosses in the White House) are really, really bad, and that Congress is good.  This separation rests on the claim about not being fully informed.

I don't think this works.  For this to work the level of EIT Congress was informed about would need to be morally acceptable, and tip over to morally unacceptable right at the point that Congress was no longer informed.  We were OK with waterboarding high value targets, but not with no pants on a concrete floor.

[The Minsky Moment]

Was EIT legal at the time?

No

[11B4V]

Not disagreeing with your statement. If they don't prosecute, it's nothing but bullshit political games started by Feinstein. Do you really think the vast majority of the American public gives a shit at this point? IMO, no. It's not on their radar.

Yeah, there's definitely a political dimension to this, but I'm not sure that should make it off limits.

For one, personally, I think this is serious enough that it should be addressed and if the only way that's gonna happen is to put it into the political arena (and it seems it is), then I think it's legitimate. If the American public ultimately decides that they don't give a fuck, then they don't and there you have the new American normal - depraved and pointless torture is okay on some occasions.

Alternately, this political play could lead to some sort of political action - maybe McCain gets enough Republicans on board and something can happen across party lines - that results in responsible parties actually seeing legal sanction. I don't know how likely it is, but the possibility is there which makes it worthwhile even from a looking-for-prosecutions-perspective. Ultimately, in my view, this situation is big enough that the proper arena for handling it is the political arena; is this kind of torture acceptable for the US? That's a political question. It's one I'd hoped was beyond the pale to ask, with the answer being a resounding NO, but that seems less certain now.

So basically, I agree with you that it is political, but I disagree that it is bullshit. I think this shit is important.

In the end Jacob there will be other committees formed (grand political drama). Each side will him haw and the finger pointing will be epic. It will yield the fruits of millions of more dollars spent and that we were naughty. Euro countries will will feign aghastness as a facade. China, Russian, and Iran et al will point their finger and say, "see you got shitty draws too."   

The general AP will not give a shit, because it's not what they give a shit about. They don't give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks. It was just waterboarding, not electrical shock or pulling finger nails. 

[11B4V]

Was EIT legal at the time?

No

Then prosecute or they should STFU.

[DGuller]

WTF does "just waterboarding" mean anyway?  Since when did waterboarding become "just waterboarding"?

[11B4V]

WTF does "just waterboarding" mean anyway?  Since when did waterboarding become "just waterboarding"?

Rest of the world is just jealous at our athletic abilities and extreme sports.


Water boarding would make an interesting game show.

[Martinus]

Was EIT legal at the time?

No

Then prosecute or they should STFU.

I gotta say I agree. I don't buy the whole "naming and shaming" and "learning from mistakes" bullshit. Not when someone is alleging war crimes.

[The Minsky Moment]

To me the Feinstein report has two objectives: to say that the CIA (and by extension their bosses in the White House) are really, really bad, and that Congress is good.  This separation rests on the claim about not being fully informed.

I don't think this works. 

Agreed.  There is no way to make Congress smell nice from this.  They may not have known every detail but they knew enough to know better.

[garbon]

Was EIT legal at the time?

No

Then prosecute or they should STFU.

I gotta say I agree. I don't buy the whole "naming and shaming" and "learning from mistakes" bullshit. Not when someone is alleging war crimes.

We should totally get a grand jury on that, stat!