CIA Report

[DontSayBanana]

'Palin? That fu-Censored for content.'

I just don't understand it.  How did somebody that vapid make it through so many rounds of elections before being exposed for the shallow idiot she is?

She's got all the grasp of nuance of a half-brick in a sock.  Her ability to empathize with other cultures doesn't extend outside of her backyard, let alone outside of our borders, and I've never seen anyone with such an uncanny ability to offend as many people as possible in as few sentences as possible.

[Sheilbh]

It seems to me that the US hurt itself for basically nothing.

That's normally the way with torture as the French experience shows more than any other.

[CountDeMoney]

I would pay good money to hear what he privately thinks of Sarah Palin. I don't think it is a very high opinion, though.

'Palin? That fu-Censored for content.'

Actually, I think he genuinely liked her, and while he'll never come out and say it, his campaign failed him in their assessment of her.   But Johnny Hero doesn't abandon his mates, so he stuck with her.   
Probably has a low opinion of her current incarnation, though.

[Duque de Bragança]

It seems to me that the US hurt itself for basically nothing.

That's normally the way with torture as the French experience shows more than any other.

Not exactly, the Battle of Algiers was a military success, but a PR disaster.

[DontSayBanana]

Actually, I think he genuinely liked her, and while he'll never come out and say it, his campaign failed him in their assessment of her.   But Johnny Hero doesn't abandon his mates, so he stuck with her.   
Probably has a low opinion of her current incarnation, though.

Let's see- he's made a career out of at least appearing to stand on principle.  She's... well, she's the complete antithesis to that.

No, I don't imagine he views her newish "voice of the masses" commentator persona very favorably.

[Sheilbh]

Actually, I think he genuinely liked her, and while he'll never come out and say it, his campaign failed him in their assessment of her.   But Johnny Hero doesn't abandon his mates, so he stuck with her.   

I agree. The thing is that his campaign fucked up the assessment but he's also an impulsive guy, so he was willing to make the decision on relatively limited information and having (I think) only met her once. Neither of those are that ideal in a Presidential candidate.

I wish he'd done what he wanted to (apparently) and gone for Lieberman.

[DontSayBanana]

I agree. The thing is that his campaign fucked up the assessment but he's also an impulsive guy, so he was willing to make the decision on relatively limited information and having (I think) only met her once. Neither of those are that ideal in a Presidential candidate.

I wish he'd done what he wanted to (apparently) and gone for Lieberman.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda.  Much water has been passed under that bridge.

[Sheilbh]

Not exactly, the Battle of Algiers was a military success, but a PR disaster.

Sure. But it's a little disingenuous to limit torture to the Battle of Algiers, it was a weapon used by French forces throughout the Algerian campaign and was routine for the security forces in Algeria. Arguably it helped the Battle of Algiers' military success but that also has to be balanced against the numerous other military and security failures where it didn't help, and possibly balance that up against it's negative security implications.

In addition to that you have the PR costs and the social costs. I'd also add that I remember reading that there's very significant psychiatric costs in the veterans who become torturers for us.

[derspiess]

It seems to me that the US hurt itself for basically nothing.

That's what the report claims.  The CIA Director apparently disagrees.

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/2014-press-releases-statements/statement-from-director-brennan-on-ssci-study-on-detention-interrogation-program.html

Yet, despite common ground with some of the findings of the Committee's Study, we part ways with the Committee on some key points. Our review indicates that interrogations of detainees on whom EITs were used did produce intelligence that helped thwart attack plans, capture terrorists, and save lives. The intelligence gained from the program was critical to our understanding of al-Qa'ida and continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts to this day.

[Sheilbh]

Let's see- he's made a career out of at least appearing to stand on principle.  She's... well, she's the complete antithesis to that.

Really? She's a flip-flopper with no principles to stand on, a politically neutral cipher? That wasn't my impression.

[Admiral Yi]

The CIA misled Congress and kept former President George W. Bush in the dark as it conducted interrogations of terror suspects that were far more brutal and less effective than publicly portrayed, according to a report by Democrats on the Senate intelligence committee.

So you guys are inclined to take the Senate report at face value?

[derspiess]

Let's see- he's made a career out of at least appearing to stand on principle.  She's... well, she's the complete antithesis to that.

Really? She's a flip-flopper with no principles to stand on, a politically neutral cipher? That wasn't my impression.

I can see calling her an opportunist, but not a flip-flopper.

[Berkut]

The CIA misled Congress and kept former President George W. Bush in the dark as it conducted interrogations of terror suspects that were far more brutal and less effective than publicly portrayed, according to a report by Democrats on the Senate intelligence committee.

So you guys are inclined to take the Senate report at face value?

Yeah, I cannot imagine why anyone would do that.

The Senate report finds the Senate didn't do anything wrong? Shocking.

[The Minsky Moment]

Wouldn't the first people to face charges be those in the executive that signed off on these tactics? The article mentions John Ashcroft for example. He was presumably in a position to actually influence policy unlike maybe some congress members that were just briefed or some CIA operatives that "just followed orders".

Ashcroft was a bad egg but comparatively speaking was ambivalent on this issue.  The real bad guys were centered the VP office, including Cheney himself, and his repulsive advisor (later chief of staff) David Addington. Cheney also colonized John Yoo, the author of the infamous torture memos, who although technically Ashcroft's subordinate, appears not to have enjoyed Ashcroft's confidence (he refused to recommend Yoo for promotion).  Another key player was the ubiquitous Alberto Gonzales, whose fingerprints were all over virtually every fiasco and disgraceful act of the Bush presidency.  And of course Rumsfeld.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

I just don't understand it.  How did somebody that vapid make it through so many rounds of elections before being exposed for the shallow idiot she is?

That is the problem with partisan primaries.  When all the pre-rounds consist of a radicalized base you get shitbirds like Palin, Bachmann, Dean, and Kucinich having a realistic chance at national office.