Erdogan: Muslims discovered America in 12th century

[Sheilbh]

There is, however, evidence of several indigenous Banksies

[Razgovory]

I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from.  Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?

The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.

I believe Smallpox is most contagious after a person has shown symptoms.  It also tends to arrive in waves and may not effect a region for a long time.  I don't think it was common in Scandinavia during the Viking age.  It's most common in areas with large urban areas which the Vikings didn't have a lot of.

[Valmy]

It's most common in areas with large urban areas which the Vikings didn't have a lot of.

I don't think this is true.  Smallpox was rather notorious for devastating large rural areas.

Now granted it could both devastate rural areas and be most common in large urban areas at the same time.  But outside of Italy there were barely any urban areas anywhere in Europe (or at least Catholic Europe).

[Razgovory]

It's most common in areas with large urban areas which the Vikings didn't have a lot of.

I don't think this is true.  Smallpox was rather notorious for devastating large rural areas.

Now granted it could both devastate rural areas and be most common in large urban areas at the same time.  But outside of Italy there were barely any urban areas anywhere in Europe (or at least Catholic Europe).

Small pox wasn't common in Europe until the high middle ages where you do see the return of large urban areas.  It may have existed in Roman Europe, but seems to have been hampered by the depopulation of dark ages.

[Viking]

I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from.  Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?

The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.

Climate wasn't really an issue. Distance was. It took longer to travel to iceland than it did to the carribean from spain. The plague itself only managed to reach iceland in the 14th century when the property of an icelandic plague victim resident in denmark was sent home after the outbreak ended in denmark. To survive the transit to america rats or men would need to survive 2 weeks between norway and iceland, 1 week to greenland and 1 week to vinland in an open boat (as opposed to a ship like the caravel). Furthermore, due to the low population density in the region of embarcation it's unlikely that the sailors might encounter an infected person, compared to say Cadiz or Lisboa. 

[Malthus]

I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from.  Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?

The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.

Climate wasn't really an issue. Distance was. It took longer to travel to iceland than it did to the carribean from spain. The plague itself only managed to reach iceland in the 14th century when the property of an icelandic plague victim resident in denmark was sent home after the outbreak ended in denmark. To survive the transit to america rats or men would need to survive 2 weeks between norway and iceland, 1 week to greenland and 1 week to vinland in an open boat (as opposed to a ship like the caravel). Furthermore, due to the low population density in the region of embarcation it's unlikely that the sailors might encounter an infected person, compared to say Cadiz or Lisboa.

Yeah, Smallpox requires a human to have symptoms to be transmitted - there are no asymptomatic carriers. Given its relatively short incubation period (I think it is like 12 days), most people would have died or recovered before they got to America via the Greenland route - so it would not be transmitted unless there was en-route infection.

Also, Viking encounters with natives appear to have been totally hostile, so there was less chance of transmission than if they peacefully cohabited. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

It seems to have taken a while for smallpox to get going in the New World. The first epidemic seems to have been in 1518 and more or less finished off the Taino, that later spread to the mainland but of course they were being invaded by Cortes and an army is a good way of spreading disease.

[Valmy]

"Army" is rather stretching it

But yeah it turned out to be the winning card for Cortes.

[Siege]

An army back then was any large group of people on an military mission.
Cortez had 500 dudes and a little cannon.
I would call that an army. Definitively an expeditionary force, though that term would be ahistorical for the times.

[Siege]

Correction.

Cortez had 16 guns, 13 brigantines, about 100 cavalry and a little over 1,000 infantry.
Plus his injuns allies.

[Viking]

I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from.  Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?

The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.

Climate wasn't really an issue. Distance was. It took longer to travel to iceland than it did to the carribean from spain. The plague itself only managed to reach iceland in the 14th century when the property of an icelandic plague victim resident in denmark was sent home after the outbreak ended in denmark. To survive the transit to america rats or men would need to survive 2 weeks between norway and iceland, 1 week to greenland and 1 week to vinland in an open boat (as opposed to a ship like the caravel). Furthermore, due to the low population density in the region of embarcation it's unlikely that the sailors might encounter an infected person, compared to say Cadiz or Lisboa.

Yeah, Smallpox requires a human to have symptoms to be transmitted - there are no asymptomatic carriers. Given its relatively short incubation period (I think it is like 12 days), most people would have died or recovered before they got to America via the Greenland route - so it would not be transmitted unless there was en-route infection.

Also, Viking encounters with natives appear to have been totally hostile, so there was less chance of transmission than if they peacefully cohabited.

Not totally hostile. Initially they weren't hostile. However it did go pearshaped pretty damn quickly since the indians had a habit of borrowing metal tools without asking and the vikings had the habit of killing thieves. iirc They spent two summers there and then left as indian raiding grew more insistent. Remember, they only had two ships and were at most 60 people. The the choice was send off 30 to try and get help or just return to greenland.

[Siege]

The norse failed in that they didn't have the printing press.
Had they used proper printed propaganda the word about a fertile land would have attracted many adventurers, failed farmers, and outcasted traders.

[Malthus]

The norse failed in that they didn't have the printing press.
Had they used proper printed propaganda the word about a fertile land would have attracted many adventurers, failed farmers, and outcasted traders.

It did - but they were still a trifle sore about that whole "Greenland" promotion, and so unwilling to invest in "Vinland". 

[Malthus]

Not totally hostile. Initially they weren't hostile. However it did go pearshaped pretty damn quickly since the indians had a habit of borrowing metal tools without asking and the vikings had the habit of killing thieves. iirc They spent two summers there and then left as indian raiding grew more insistent. Remember, they only had two ships and were at most 60 people. The the choice was send off 30 to try and get help or just return to greenland.

The Viking explorers sound like they made very bad neighbours. Local natives very quickly took to a 'shoot on sight' policy.

Hell, didn't one group of them murder off another, when they found the other group squatting in their longhouse? I guess having a whole new continent wasn't big enough for the both of them. 

[Viking]

Not totally hostile. Initially they weren't hostile. However it did go pearshaped pretty damn quickly since the indians had a habit of borrowing metal tools without asking and the vikings had the habit of killing thieves. iirc They spent two summers there and then left as indian raiding grew more insistent. Remember, they only had two ships and were at most 60 people. The the choice was send off 30 to try and get help or just return to greenland.

The Viking explorers sound like they made very bad neighbours. Local natives very quickly took to a 'shoot on sight' policy.

Hell, didn't one group of them murder off another, when they found the other group squatting in their longhouse? I guess having a whole new continent wasn't big enough for the both of them. 

No, the settlement was carried out by one homestead lead by one chief. The norse were perfectly happy to murder each other regularly, but here, this was not the case.

And, yes, Vikings were very very very very bad neighbors.