#Gamergate goes off the deep end

[Syt]

I agree that it's partially selective, but that doesn't mean there aren't problems.

Using T&A as lowest common denominator to sell games - yeah, that's cheap, and it's not like it isn't ridiculed enough these days. In the late 80s and early 90s, gaming magazines routinely had scantily clad women on their covers, and games ads or boxes weren't any better. I feel it's become better now, and gratuitous attempts at pulling something like that (without being openly satirical or ironical about it) is rightfully ridiculed (remember the ads about that one online strategy game that started off "normal" (knight/king or something) and moved to using ever less dressed women in suggestive poses and slogans?).

And we don't get to see "bikini" armor much, anymore, either. Will it ever go fully away? Doubtful. We still have exploitation flicks, and I presume a niche like this will remain in gaming.

Are there good, positive female characters in games? Sure. But as protagonists, I would estimate the ration is at least 80/20 in favor of males. White males, to be precise. I read somewhere that as audience women find it easier to follow and identify with a male protagonist than vice versa, and similar supposedly holds true for race. I dunno how scientific that finding is (or if real at all) but if it exists, then it's a hen and egg question - is the white male protagonist the default view point because it will allow identification for most people, or will it allow identification because it's the codified default?

At any rate, I again find that things are better than 20 years ago. The indie scene helps a lot with it, because they're not afraid of breaking or inverting tropes for fear of not appealing to the mass market.

Getting the open sexism and misogyny out of the system will happen slowly, over time, both in games, and in the gamer culture.

The less open one ... well. Think of how popular a genre romcoms are in movies. Yet it's a genre where in most cases the self worth of a woman is defined by her being in a relationship. (Which is why Brave was such a refreshing break from the "happily ever after" formula.) Is it female wish fulfillment or power fantasy? I dunno. But I find it mildly confusing that a type of movie that often stresses that life is incomplete for a woman if she's single draws so comparatively little criticism.

And don't get me started on commercials. How many commercials for household products (detergents, toilet paper, diapers, ...) are there where a male takes care of the work, and it's *not* played for laughs?

[Martinus]

I am not saying these things are not true, Syt - as a gay male I see them more acutely and clearly than most heterosexual males because if you are not a minority you tend to overlook the heteronorm (which is largely written from the perspective of a white straight male).

I am just saying that if you do it in a poorly researched, selective manner you end up alienating a lot of people who might be otherwise sympathetic to your cause.

Edit: "you" in the above paragraphs was a general you, not addressed at you specifically, Syt.

[Martinus]

Bioware is a good example of that - Dragon Age was one of the most groundbreaking games in the way women and sexual minorities were portrayed in a roleplaying fantasy game (one of the most conservative genres), allowing full equality of romance and playing a character who was male, female, straight or gay, as desired by the player. It also featured a number of strong  complex female characters (such as the queen or Morrigan) that did not fall into the damsel or whore stereotype - and I am fairly sure that, when played as a female character, it would have easily passed the Behdel test.

So when a shot from Dragon Age is the first one used in a tv material featuring "sexist portrayal of women in games", I can see how people can get pissed off at "militant man-hating feminists".

[Martinus]

And also, there seems to be a tendency from a portion of the feminist movement to mix sexism that exists in a medium at the meta level with sexism that exists as a part of the narrative. For example, to me SOIAF is one of the most feminist widely acclaimed fantasy series written by a man - yet I saw a feminist critique of it, saying that it is sexist, because it depicts a sexist, misogynistic society and, as this is a fantasy and not a historical fiction, the author could - but deliberately did not - make the society depicted in his books more equal and feminist.

Complaints like this make you go "wtf".

[The Brain]

Sounds like a complaint made by a woman.

[Valmy]

I did think the whole rapey thing in the City Elf origin was pretty stupid.  I mean it was ridiculous how mustache-twirlingly evil the humans were, even the guards.  Is this really the best way they could show that City Elves were discriminated against?  Did nobles just ride into Jewish Ghettos and publicly grab a few Jewish women to rape back in the Middle Ages?  Did the KKK just strut into a black church and rape a few ladies right there?  Surely there are better ways of showing this sort of thing than something so absurd and over the top.  Then of course after establishing that humans see you as subhuman scum only worthy of being used as an object they treat you with polite respect the entire rest of the game.  It kind of made the rape wedding thing seem like it was almost put there for titillation.

Of course yeah this was not common for Dragon Age at all, it was rather out of place.

Bioware is a good example of that - Dragon Age was one of the most groundbreaking games in the way women and sexual minorities were portrayed in a roleplaying fantasy game (one of the most conservative genres),

Huh.  Weird I could have female heroes in fantasy games from the beginning.  Sex even being an issue at all in these games was pretty new anyway (pretty much being invented by Bioware with BG2).  I guess I hadn't noticed roleplaying games being super behind other genres or had anti-woman or sexual minority issues.  Especially CRPGs.  I mean the whole point is you can make any character you want.

And also, there seems to be a tendency from a portion of the feminist movement to mix sexism that exists in a medium at the meta level with sexism that exists as a part of the narrative. For example, to me SOIAF is one of the most feminist widely acclaimed fantasy series written by a man - yet I saw a feminist critique of it, saying that it is sexist, because it depicts a sexist, misogynistic society and, as this is a fantasy and not a historical fiction, the author could - but deliberately did not - make the society depicted in his books more equal and feminist.

There are loads of Feminists and some of them are awesome and some of them are morons.

[Ideologue]

But I find it mildly confusing that a type of movie that often stresses that life is incomplete for a woman if she's single draws so comparatively little criticism.

Could it have something to do with it being held as trivially true, and for most people of both genders?

[garbon]

Think of how popular a genre romcoms are in movies. Yet it's a genre where in most cases the self worth of a woman is defined by her being in a relationship. (Which is why Brave was such a refreshing break from the "happily ever after" formula.) Is it female wish fulfillment or power fantasy? I dunno. But I find it mildly confusing that a type of movie that often stresses that life is incomplete for a woman if she's single draws so comparatively little criticism.

I think it is pretty standard fare in feminism to take issue with romantic comedies and generally the notion that a woman needs a man in order to get by.

[Valmy]

I think it is pretty standard fare in feminism to take issue with romantic comedies and generally the notion that a woman needs a man in order to get by.

I think they take it a little too...erm...strongly though.  I mean I personally do need a pretty good support structure and I do need a partner in my life to really function at my peak.  But that is not true for a lot of people.  I guess the notion is that some women might need a partner and other women might not but there is nothing wrong with them either way.  Instead we either get the extreme: 'a woman needs a man' and 'a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.'

It kind of depends on who the individual is and what their needs are.

[Eddie Teach]

I mean I personally do need a pretty good support structure and I do need a partner in my life to really function at my peak.  But that is not true for a lot of people. 

I think it's true for nearly everyone. Some just do a better job of fooling themselves.

[Valmy]

Also if you gender flip the story and a damaged and lonely man who finds happiness because a woman shows up in his life then it is also sexist against women since this just shows women are nothing but objects to please men, devoid of their own goals and what have you.  But that might just be John Green ranting against the 'Manic Pixie Dream Girl' thing and not a widespread feminist critique.

[garbon]

I mean I personally do need a pretty good support structure and I do need a partner in my life to really function at my peak.  But that is not true for a lot of people. 

I think it's true for nearly everyone. Some just do a better job of fooling themselves.

I don't really see how that's true. Certainly we all need other people in our lives but I don't see why we can't get on without a singular romantic partner.

[The Brain]

In a porn, if one woman has sex with many men it's sexiss against women. If a man has sex with many women it's also sexiss against women.

[Ideologue]

Also if you gender flip the story and a damaged and lonely man who finds happiness because a woman shows up in his life then it is also sexist against women since this just shows women are nothing but objects to please men, devoid of their own goals and what have you.  But that might just be John Green ranting against the 'Manic Pixie Dream Girl' thing and not a widespread feminist critique.

I know it was Legbiter (or was it? well some Languish misogynist) but I did like that combination chart that showed how every relationship except male homosexuality could be perceived misogynist.

[Valmy]

I don't really see how that's true. Certainly we all need other people in our lives but I don't see why we can't get on without a singular romantic partner.

To me it is about the level of intimacy and commitment.  My buddies, though great, are not going to give me much thought on their day to day business.  They have romantic partners and families and lives.  I am not among the most important people in their lives.  I really do better with a partner where we do have that level of investment in each other.  So I would be very unhappy without that singular romantic partner.  So that's why.  Now how universal is that?  Probably not as universal as PW thinks but who knows?  Certainly those RomComs hit a cord with somebody.