Columbia student carrying mattress until school expels her rapist

[garbon]

it sounds suspiciously close to calling anyone who doesn't agree with a liar.

I don't think so as that isn't the intent at all. I've just yet to see any stats on how many claimed rapes are actually false and any look at what impact that has on attitudes towards rape. Presumably, someone making the claim that false rapes are just as big a problem as rapes would have some cites for that, right?

Well the cop in that Al-J article said he had to bully the girl because he gets 20 to one fake accusations. And the girl said she didn't want to report the rape to the cops because they would bully her. Sounds exactly like false claims making it hard for the victims.

You're right that's one possible piece of support although I'm really wondering if that's accurate. It would be so counter-common wisdom that tons of women are running out there making false rape accusations.

[Jacob]

Well the cop in that Al-J article said he had to bully the girl because he gets 20 to one fake accusations. And the girl said she didn't want to report the rape to the cops because they would bully her. Sounds exactly like false claims making it hard for the victims.

Interesting. I get exactly the opposite conclusion out of it - that the system assumes most rape claims are false, thus making reporting rapes a harrowing experience leading the fewer reports, leading to a systematical trivializing and dismissal of rape as an issue.

[Jacob]

What are the things that push your "lie" numbers up?

Have you been reading the thread?

I have, yes. If you would do me the courtesy of pointing out the most relevant post(s) of yours answering my question, I would be much obliged.

[derspiess]

When it comes to rape allegations I like to ask "what motivation is there to make up such a story"?  It's not as if identifying yourself as a rape victim is a badge of honour in this society.  Indeed - look at how she has opened herself up to getting every aspect of her life analyzed.

You serious, Clark?? 

If you're of the right mindset, there are huge benefits to making up a story like that.  Keep in mind this is an academic environment.  You get instant hero/celebrity status on campus-- people praise you for your bravery and give you all sorts of sympathy (I've known people who absolutely crave sympathy).  This can all be leveraged for campus leadership positions, possibly a project that gives you a guaranteed A, and who knows what post-graduate opportunities. 

And certain people will believe you, no matter what.  Do you guys remember the girl at Ohio U. last year who was having oral sex performed on her out in public, and later claimed she was raped?  All witnesses and video evidence indicated it was 100% consensual (both were drunk, but she was literally shoving his head into her crotch).  She *still* was able to convince people she was somehow raped.  Her particular motivation was different, of course.

[Jacob]

You serious, Clark?? 

If you're of the right mindset, there are huge benefits to making up a story like that.  Keep in mind this is an academic environment.  You get instant hero/celebrity status on campus-- people praise you for your bravery and give you all sorts of sympathy (I've known people who absolutely crave sympathy).  This can all be leveraged for campus leadership positions, possibly a project that gives you a guaranteed A, and who knows what post-graduate opportunities. 

And certain people will believe you, no matter what.  Do you guys remember the girl at Ohio U. last year who was having oral sex performed on her out in public, and later claimed she was raped?  All witnesses and video evidence indicated it was 100% consensual (both were drunk, but she was literally shoving his head into her crotch).  She *still* was able to convince people she was somehow raped.  Her particular motivation was different, of course.

Yeah, I think there are some fundamentally different approaches on the subject going here.

[grumbler]

Similarly, we must guard against assuming that, since most due process outcomes are just, all due process outcomes are just.

I reject that premise.  I see more unjust outcomes than just ones every single day.

If I were in your office, I would see that, too. 

[Admiral Yi]

I have, yes. If you would do me the courtesy of pointing out the most relevant post(s) of yours answering my question, I would be much obliged.

I haven't disagreed with anything Malthus has said yet.

[Jacob]

I have, yes. If you would do me the courtesy of pointing out the most relevant post(s) of yours answering my question, I would be much obliged.

I haven't disagreed with anything Malthus has said yet.

Okay, so "talk to Malthus, not me". Got it.

[MadImmortalMan]

Well the cop in that Al-J article said he had to bully the girl because he gets 20 to one fake accusations. And the girl said she didn't want to report the rape to the cops because they would bully her. Sounds exactly like false claims making it hard for the victims.

Interesting. I get exactly the opposite conclusion out of it - that the system assumes most rape claims are false, thus making reporting rapes a harrowing experience leading the fewer reports, leading to a systematical trivializing and dismissal of rape as an issue.

Yes. Why is the "system" assuming that? Is it because the cops are misogynist douchebags or is it because they see so many false accusations? Or both?

I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet there is a lot of douchebaggery involved. We're talking about cops, after all. So I'll hedge and say both.

[grumbler]

Well the cop in that Al-J article said he had to bully the girl because he gets 20 to one fake accusations. And the girl said she didn't want to report the rape to the cops because they would bully her. Sounds exactly like false claims making it hard for the victims.

The cop said no such thing in the AJ article.  Sulkowicz's friends claimed that he said that.  I don't put a lot of cred in the claim, because it fits too neatly into the narrative she is creating to justify not doing the right thing the first time, and doesn't sound like something a cop would actually say.  Twenty-to-one accusations to convictions is credible; twenty-to-one false accusations to real is not.

[Admiral Yi]

Okay, so "talk to Malthus, not me". Got it.

I'm happy to talk to you, don't feel up to summarizing all my points from a 20 page thread.  If for whatever reason you need a synopsis, use Malthus as a proxy.

[grumbler]

Well the cop in that Al-J article said he had to bully the girl because he gets 20 to one fake accusations. And the girl said she didn't want to report the rape to the cops because they would bully her. Sounds exactly like false claims making it hard for the victims.

Interesting. I get exactly the opposite conclusion out of it - that the system assumes most rape claims are false, thus making reporting rapes a harrowing experience leading the fewer reports, leading to a systematical trivializing and dismissal of rape as an issue.

Yes. Why is the "system" assuming that? Is it because the cops are misogynist douchebags or is it because they see so many false accusations? Or both?

I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet there is a lot of douchebaggery involved. We're talking about cops, after all. So I'll hedge and say both.

I don't believe either contention.  A large percentage of the officers working in the sex crimes units are women.  Are they misogynistic douchbags, too?  Again, all the "evidence" cited in this thread has been from the woman and her close friends, who have an axe to grind.   

[crazy canuck]

Do you believe her claim?

I don't see any reason not to.

Do you believe her?

  After an investigation, the case was reviewed by the competent tribunal, and the preponderance of evidence was found to be on the side of the accused.  After a review by the school dean of students, the finding was confirmed.  You are saying the guy was lying and the investigators, tribunal, and dean were all incompetent.  What reason do you find for this belief?

Interesting thread.

She alleges that the University tribunal hearing the case was incompetent.   But there is little in the article to make a judgment about that.  In Canada if a student believed that a University internal decision maker deprived them of a fair hearing (as she seems to allege) then the remedy would be a judicial review of that decision.  I assume that such a remedy exists in the US.  If so at least some negative inference can be drawn from her not seeking that remedy.  Even if she did have difficulty with the police she chose the administrative route and so one would think she could have seen that through if the decision was as flawed as she claims. 

[garbon]

Do you believe her claim?

I don't see any reason not to.

Do you believe her?

  After an investigation, the case was reviewed by the competent tribunal, and the preponderance of evidence was found to be on the side of the accused.  After a review by the school dean of students, the finding was confirmed.  You are saying the guy was lying and the investigators, tribunal, and dean were all incompetent.  What reason do you find for this belief?

Interesting thread.

She alleges that the University tribunal hearing the case was incompetent.   But there is little in the article to make a judgment about that.  In Canada if a student believed that a University internal decision maker deprived them of a fair hearing (as she seems to allege) then the remedy would be a judicial review of that decision.  I assume that such a remedy exists in the US.  If so at least some negative inference can be drawn from her not seeking that remedy.  Even if she did have difficulty with the police she chose the administrative route and so one would think she could have seen that through if the decision was as flawed as she claims. 

[crazy canuck]

I am not sure what I said that is particularly funny.