Scottish Independence

[Sheilbh]

Basically English Patriotism was way-layed by racists and they adopted it's symbols such as the flag. That's why he feels uneasy when he sees his national symbols. There has been a concious effort to re-claim these symbols but for people born before a certain date the flag wil always be associated with soccer hooligans and english neo-nazis.

I don't care. I was born in Liverpool with Irish parents and grew up in Scotland. I've always felt mostly British. I'm very posh sounding but I always feel, with the exception of London, that the South's a different country. I feel most at home in Scotland to be honest.

But I've always thought we need more English identity and that that's the big problem in the UK. We can't have a British identity because the English are hogging it.

Added to that and I don't know why but I think Scotland and Wales have managed to create a civic Scottish and Welsh identity whereas I think England's is still a little bit of an ethnic identity. It'll be interesting to see English identity if Scotland secedes. I've heard of Black British and Asian-British, but never Black English or Asian-English so I'm not sure how that will reformulate itself.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not sure what you are saying here, aside from the misquote.

However to address some of viper's questions now that I have some time, the only one that has anything to do with nationalism is the first one:

They all felt they were the same people as the soldiers of the Empire who recently disembarked in their lands?

My understanding is yes, they saw themselves as the same people for the most part. The grievances against British soldiers weren't that they were foreigners, but that they perpetrated and enforced what were viewed as unjust practices. The soldiers that were actually viewed as foreigners were the Hessian mercenaries and that was a separate grievance.

Nationalism isn't about grievance, though that's often a motivating factor. It's about a sense of separate identity especially culturally and believing that because of that it needs its own political expression around that geographic, ethnic or civic identity. Did North Americans, especially given the growth in feeling of self-reliance, really feel no separate identity to British soldiers? That seems surprising. But I think it's difficult to compare nationalisms and I think that's especially the case with old and new world.

To the extent that Scotland has a sense of grievance it's that the result of the election in Scotland makes no difference to the policies implemented in Scotland on around 90% of their budget and their tax rates etc. But that goes both ways. I think it's striking that English identity's been talked about in a more positive way over the last five years. But it did coincide with a massive tantrum lots of English people threw over Gordon Brown being Scottish, the 'Scottish Raj' of New Labour and the occasional vote that raised the West Lothian question. What England endured, stroppily, for about 3 years has been the norm in Scotland (and Wales) for the last 60.

[mongers]

The Queen , so to speak, wades out of the debate:

Scottish independence: Monarch 'above politics', Buckingham Palace says

Any suggestion that the Queen would wish to influence the Scottish referendum campaign is "categorically wrong", Buckingham Palace has said.

The statement follows press reports that Her Majesty was concerned about the prospect of Scottish independence.

It also follows comments from First Minister Alex Salmond, who said the Queen "will be proud" to be the monarch of an independent Scotland.

The Palace insisted the referendum was "a matter for the people of Scotland".

A spokesman said: "The sovereign's constitutional impartiality is an established principle of our democracy and one which the Queen has demonstrated throughout her reign.

"As such the monarch is above politics and those in political office have a duty to ensure that this remains the case.

"Any suggestion that the Queen would wish to influence the outcome of the current referendum campaign is categorically wrong.

"Her Majesty is firmly of the view that this is a matter for the people of Scotland."
....

Full article here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29136149

[Admiral Yi]

To the extent that Scotland has a sense of grievance it's that the result of the election in Scotland makes no difference to the policies implemented in Scotland on around 90% of their budget and their tax rates etc.

You could take any equivalent slice of the UK voting population and say the same thing.

[Sheilbh]

Nationalism based on civic or geographic identity? That's a lot more broad definition than I am used to, and seems awfully close to defining any meaning out of the term.

But I don't see how else you can explain it.

I think nationalism's easily perceived as instantly negative and often, historically, it has been. It's exclusive, it's ethnic and it's divisive. Though I think historically that's not always the case.

I'm not convinced a view of nationalism that's shaped in that way accurately describes, say, Scottish or Catalan nationalism. They're based on there being a different culture in their country than there is in the broader unit they're in, but they're an identity that outsiders can join in. As I say my observation would be that ethnic minority Brits in England are far more likely to identify as British than English, but that just isn't anywhere near as true in Scotland.

On the other hand I'd argue the opposite of you, I think a definition of nationalism that excludes wars of independence and, say, the development of Dominion status is one that's far too narrow.

[Admiral Yi]

No.

[mongers]

No.

I'll introduce bicycles into all of your thread. 

[Sheilbh]

You could take any equivalent slice of the UK voting population and say the same thing.

Okay. But none of them are countries. The Home Counties may grumble but they're English and they're part of England. Scotland has always been its own country that joined with another country voluntarily.

Also you're right and that's arguably precisely the problem with Britain. Why are we still so centralised? Why are we so unwilling to grant reasonable desires for Home Rule and devolution that we end up forcing the question of independence or union?

I always return to this example but I remember Eric Pickles the Secretary of State for Local Government boasting at the Tory conference that he'd forced councils to return to weekly bin collection (many had moved to fortnightly to save money and in the name of deterring waste). This got a massive cheer as it's one of those eccentrically popular Tory policies. At the time I just thought - why is that being talked about at cabinet

At the same conference that a Minister boasted of the cabinet deciding and imposing a national police on rubbish collection, saw the Prime Minister declaring the ambition to be the most decentralising government in British history

[Admiral Yi]

Okay. But none of them are countries. The Home Counties may grumble but they're English and they're part of England. Scotland has always been its own country that joined with another country voluntarily.

England has not always been unified.

[The Minsky Moment]

You could take any equivalent slice of the UK voting population and say the same thing.

Okay. But none of them are countries.

Wales.  Just because they were integrated through brutal force doesn't make it less a country.

Also you're right and that's arguably precisely the problem with Britain. Why are we still so centralised?

Regional units are too lumpy.  Plus inertia.

[Sheilbh]

Okay. But none of them are countries. The Home Counties may grumble but they're English and they're part of England. Scotland has always been its own country that joined with another country voluntarily.

England has not always been unified.

No. But Wessex ceased to exist and doesn't now feel significantly different than Mercia.

Scotland never ceased to exist (own legal and education systems, the Kirk, a different history) and has always felt different. They joined a union, they weren't absorbed or 'unified'.

You're right on Wales Minsky. But I've never really been to Wales, but they're definitely a country.

[mongers]

Okay. But none of them are countries. The Home Counties may grumble but they're English and they're part of England. Scotland has always been its own country that joined with another country voluntarily.

England has not always been unified.

No. But Wessex ceased to exist and doesn't now feel significantly different than Mercia.

Scotland never ceased to exist (own legal and education systems, the Kirk, a different history) and has always felt different. They joined a union, they weren't absorbed or 'unified'.

You're right on Wales Minsky. But I've never really been to Wales, but they're definitely a country.

Maybe it's the English 'identity' ?

[Admiral Yi]

No. But Wessex ceased to exist and doesn't now feel significantly different than Mercia.

Scotland never ceased to exist (own legal and education systems, the Kirk, a different history) and has always felt different. They joined a union, they weren't absorbed or 'unified'.

You're right on Wales Minsky. But I've never really been to Wales, but they're definitely a country.

Squeeze won't shut up about the north south divide.

BTW, you or anyone else caught any episodes of "Geordie Shore" on MTV?

Do you get MTV?

[viper37]

Why are we still so centralised? Why are we so unwilling to grant reasonable desires for Home Rule and devolution that we end up forcing the question of independence or union?

I've asked that question twice, got no answer, other than nationalism is evil.

If the union is so important to many British citizens, why did they let it that far before reacting?  One week before the vote and suddenly they wish to grant more autonomy?  Why should the Scots believe it?

[celedhring]

I thought that Cameron was pulling a masterstroke when he forced the "increased devolution" option off the ballot. I thought that by taking the "easy way out" option from the Scots, he would force them to vote no. Now he's already offering increased devolution and might end up losing the country.