The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[DGuller]

This officer in North Charleston, if he had only 9 weeks training, is, indeed, under-trained by the standards of most police departments.  However, he had five years worth of experience, so how long he was in training is totally moot.

Experience doesn't replace training, especially not for once-in-a-lifetime situations.

[grumbler]

This officer in North Charleston, if he had only 9 weeks training, is, indeed, under-trained by the standards of most police departments.  However, he had five years worth of experience, so how long he was in training is totally moot.

Experience doesn't replace training, especially not for once-in-a-lifetime situations.

Experience replaces five-year-old training, no matter how long it was or how many times in a lifetime the situation is expected to occur.

Recent training beats experience (except experience in the situation being considered), but that's not in the cards here.

[Malicious Intent]

So your claim is that German police spend two to three years in a police academy before they ever see the street?

No, in addition to academy training you also get practical time. IIRC initially as an observer and aide to a regular two man team, later possibly as second man to an experienced officer. To the best of my knowledge, trainees are not issued a gun until passing their final exams.

[Martinus]

No, Zanza has it correct. Training time for Police officers in Germany ranges from 2 to 3 years, with the exact duration depending on state and branch of service. Training includes - among others - courses in the relevant areas of law (like criminal, procedural, constitutional), social sciences, communication and deescalation, statistics, criminology, sports, weapon use and so on. For the higher services, an additional University degree may be demanded.

So your claim is that German police spend two to three years in a police academy before they ever see the street?

With guns? Almost certainly.

[grumbler]

So your claim is that German police spend two to three years in a police academy before they ever see the street?

No, in addition to academy training you also get practical time. IIRC initially as an observer and aide to a regular two man team, later possibly as second man to an experienced officer. To the best of my knowledge, trainees are not issued a gun until passing their final exams.

Okay, then my statement was correct.  I thought so.  What the Germans call "practical time" is what the US police call "probation."

[Martinus]

In the US, are cops "on probation" issued guns/deadly weapons?

[Caliga]

What do you think Mart?  It's America.

[Martinus]

What do you think Mart?  It's America.

If the answer is yes, then the situation is ENTIRELY opposite to what grumbler is claiming. In such case, while grumbler claim is "correct" on a technicality, it is completely false in the context in which the original claim was made (i.e. that unprepared cops are issued with guns/lethal weapons, whereas their training in Europe before they are given access to deadly weapons takes much more time).

Of course I should be used by now to grumbler's constant intellectual dishonesty, but it is still grating.

[grumbler]

In the US, are cops "on probation" issued guns/deadly weapons?

Yes.  And they do dumb things with them, like accidentally killing dudes in stairwells. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/akai-gurley-nypd-officer-indicted-police-shooting-stairwell-unarmed-man-291429301.html

[crazy canuck]

This officer in North Charleston, if he had only 9 weeks training, is, indeed, under-trained by the standards of most police departments.  However, he had five years worth of experience, so how long he was in training is totally moot.

It is only moot it one assumes that he continued to learn proper practices and procedures while on the job. 

Experience replaces five-year-old training, no matter how long it was or how many times in a lifetime the situation is expected to occur.

Recent training beats experience (except experience in the situation being considered), but that's not in the cards here.

Only if one assumes that the "experience" allowed the officer to continue to learn proper practices and procedures.

[derspiess]

Euros are generally wusses on armed cops in the first place, though.  We don't have that luxury.  Over here an unarmed cop on patrol would mean a dead cop.

[Malicious Intent]

Okay, then my statement was correct.  I thought so.  What the Germans call "practical time" is what the US police call "probation."

Honest question, since english is not my native language and I am not really accustomed with the training of US police officers:

Does probation not mean that your training has finished? For german officers, practical time would only be a small part of their training period to compliment theory with insights into everyday work. Courses would continue throughout your 2 to 3 years of academy time. The actual probation period (Probezeit) then starts after the final exam and lasts for another three years.

[crazy canuck]

Euros are generally wusses on armed cops in the first place, though.  We don't have that luxury.  Over here an unarmed cop on patrol would mean a dead cop.

The shock of having an appendage removed from their body?

[derspiess]

 

[grumbler]

What do you think Mart?  It's America.

If the answer is yes, then the situation is ENTIRELY opposite identical to what grumbler is claiming. 

Fixed that for you.  I don't know what wild hair you have up your ass today, but I merely noted that many US cops, like Euro cops, undergo academy training for six months, and then serve a further training and evaluation period of several years while on the job.

The argument that these identical descriptions are opposite is a typical bit of Marti intellectual dishonesty.

In such case, while grumbler claim is "correct" on a technicality, it is completely false in the context in which the original claim was made (i.e. that unprepared cops are issued with guns/lethal weapons, whereas their training in Europe before they are given access to deadly weapons takes much more time).

Wait... so i am right, even when you say that the cases are "opposite..."  Not only are you dishonest, you are confused about what lie you are telling.  The issue I responded to was about how long the "training phase" for a police officer lasted.   Neither I nor anyone else said a word about "unprepared cops are issued with guns/lethal weapons" - this is a lie you made up for this post.

Of course I should be used by now to grumbler's constant intellectual dishonesty superiority, but it is still grating.

Corrected that lie for you, as well.