The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[crazy canuck]

This is going far afield, but everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable.  In hindsight it wasn't perfect, but their actions were justifiable.

I have not idea how one might conclude that.  Did you read or hear about the findings of Mr. Justice Braidwood?

"I found that Mr. Dziekanski had been compliant and was not defiant or resistant, did not brandish the stapler, did not move towards any of the officers," he said.

"I concluded that the constable was not justified in deploying the weapon and that neither the constable nor the corporal honestly perceived that Mr. Dziekanski was intending to attack any of the officers," he said.

Officers misrepresented actions

Braidwood concluded the officers later deliberately misrepresented what happened at the airport to justify their actions.

"I also concluded that the two other officers during their testimony before me offered patently unbelievable after-the-fact rationalizations of their notes and their statements" to the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team, Braidwood said.

"I found all four officers' claims that they wrestled Mr. Dziekanski to the ground were deliberate misrepresentations made for the purpose of justifying their actions."



"I also disbelieved the four officers' claims there was no discussion between or among them about the incident before being questioned by IHIT investigators, although I did not conclude that they colluded to fabricate a story."

"From this review I drew two final conclusions," he said. "Despite their training, the officers approached the incident as though responding to a barroom brawl and failed to shift gears when they realized that they were dealing with an obviously distraught traveller."

"This tragic case is at its heart a story of shameful conduct by a few officers. It ought not to reflect unfairly on the many thousands of RCMP and other police officers who have, through years of public service, protected our communities and earned a well-deserved reputation for doing so."

Go read this link and watch the video of Braidwood giving some of his findings and then let me know if you still think the conduct of the RCMP officers was justified.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-wrong-to-use-taser-on-dziekanski-report-1.928850

[Barrister]

This is going far afield, but everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable.  In hindsight it wasn't perfect, but their actions were justifiable.

I have not idea how one might conclude that.  Did you read or hear about the findings of Mr. Justice Braidwood?

"I found that Mr. Dziekanski had been compliant and was not defiant or resistant, did not brandish the stapler, did not move towards any of the officers," he said.

"I concluded that the constable was not justified in deploying the weapon and that neither the constable nor the corporal honestly perceived that Mr. Dziekanski was intending to attack any of the officers," he said.

Officers misrepresented actions

Braidwood concluded the officers later deliberately misrepresented what happened at the airport to justify their actions.

"I also concluded that the two other officers during their testimony before me offered patently unbelievable after-the-fact rationalizations of their notes and their statements" to the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team, Braidwood said.

"I found all four officers' claims that they wrestled Mr. Dziekanski to the ground were deliberate misrepresentations made for the purpose of justifying their actions."



"I also disbelieved the four officers' claims there was no discussion between or among them about the incident before being questioned by IHIT investigators, although I did not conclude that they colluded to fabricate a story."

"From this review I drew two final conclusions," he said. "Despite their training, the officers approached the incident as though responding to a barroom brawl and failed to shift gears when they realized that they were dealing with an obviously distraught traveller."

"This tragic case is at its heart a story of shameful conduct by a few officers. It ought not to reflect unfairly on the many thousands of RCMP and other police officers who have, through years of public service, protected our communities and earned a well-deserved reputation for doing so."

Go read this link and watch the video of Braidwood giving some of his findings and then let me know if you still think the conduct of the RCMP officers was justified.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-wrong-to-use-taser-on-dziekanski-report-1.928850

I disagree with Braidwood's conclusion.

[crazy canuck]

Wonderful.  Braidwood concluded the RCMP officers were lying about why they drew the weapon but you believe them.  Why?

Btw, did you ever see the video.  It clearly showed the RCMP version was not accurate - to put it politely.

[grumbler]

That's a difference in American and German tertiary education. They would go from high school to the police academy directly. The police academies will often give them something that may be comparable to your community college degrees. So by the time they are done with police academy, they would be like 21.

Ah.  Okay, I can see how that fits the German education/apprenticeship idea.

and then start to lose the physical abilities to be a cop around 45.

Hmm, not sure. You see older cops here. Not in all tasks of course (i.e. not in riot police), but also not limited to desk jobs. [/quote]

You see some older cops in the US as well, but generally cops are expected to retire after around 20 years of service.

[Barrister]

Wonderful.  Braidwood concluded the RCMP officers were lying about why they drew the weapon but you believe them.  Why?

Btw, did you ever see the video.  It clearly showed the RCMP version was not accurate - to put it politely.

Yes.  And that's what I'm saying - if the cops had told the truth this would have been a short-lived non-story.  The story was in the secretiveness and deception, not in what happened to Mr. Dziekanski.

[crazy canuck]

Wonderful.  Braidwood concluded the RCMP officers were lying about why they drew the weapon but you believe them.  Why?

Btw, did you ever see the video.  It clearly showed the RCMP version was not accurate - to put it politely.

Yes.  And that's what I'm saying - if the cops had told the truth this would have been a short-lived non-story.  The story was in the secretiveness and deception, not in what happened to Mr. Dziekanski.

BB, they had to lie in order to justify using force.  Without the lie there is no justification for the use of any force.  So tell me again how you concluded that "everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable".

[lustindarkness]

He was Polish. Duh

[Malicious Intent]

You see some older cops in the US as well, but generally cops are expected to retire after around 20 years of service.

Here they generally remain in service till reaching legal retirement age.
Getting new blood for the street cops has become a bit of a problem in Germany (high requirements, shitty pay for hard work and terrible hours), so we would be pretty much screwed without the veterans.

[sbr]

Wonderful.  Braidwood concluded the RCMP officers were lying about why they drew the weapon but you believe them.  Why?

Btw, did you ever see the video.  It clearly showed the RCMP version was not accurate - to put it politely.

Yes.  And that's what I'm saying - if the cops had told the truth this would have been a short-lived non-story.  The story was in the secretiveness and deception, not in what happened to Mr. Dziekanski.

BB, they had to lie in order to justify using force.  Without the lie there is no justification for the use of any force.  So tell me again how you concluded that "everything the RCMP did with the polish guy was perfectly justifiable".

I'm pretty new around here and even I know the answer to that.

[DGuller]

It does show you the thought process of people involved in investigations after cop shootings.  I bet most cops and prosecutors involved in hushing things up don't do their business in nefarious smoke-filled rooms;  they just want to save good cops making a possibly flawed decisions the bullshit from the politicians and the public that doesn't understand the realities of policing.

[Martinus]

21 hits in 36 shots? They must have some excellent marksmanship training.

[grumbler]They receive no training. They are let loose into the streets the moment they sign up.[/grumbler]

[grumbler]

21 hits in 36 shots? They must have some excellent marksmanship training.

31 of the 35 shots were fired from 3 inches behind the head.

[DGuller]

 

[grumbler]

21 hits in 36 shots? They must have some excellent marksmanship training.

[grumbler]They receive no training. They are let loose into the streets the moment they sign up.[/grumbler]

Now you are letting your impulse towards intellectual dishonesty to overcome your common sense.

[crazy canuck]

It's the same video, you're just seeing different things.  In the video, Slager picks up the stun gun from where he was standing when he was shooting, and walks over to the dead guy and drops it next to him.

And I didn't see the part where he drops it next to the dead dude.  I saw the part where he picks it up and holsters it.

Take a look at this link

http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000003615939/video-shows-fatal-police-shooting.html

They put up a caption at the point where he appears to be dropping it by the body.  Roughly a third of the way in.

The other thing I find remarkable is that the officer's first thought isn't to treat the guy he just shot to try to save his life.  His first thought is to go back and get his taser.  Now, why could that possibly be a priority?