The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[11B4V]

11B4V, you clearly have an issue with how this has/is playing out. But you've not really offered anything to counter its productivity. Change is happening now. We don't know what it will look like or how it will play out, but there is no question that the protesters are being heard.

I'll point out that taking a knee was condemned, rallies for #BlackLivesMatter were condemned. Trying to take police to court was condemned. And nothing changed. Four cops killed a black man in broad daylight, knowing they were being videotaped doing it. Police are right now attacking peaceful protesters (as well as rioters) knowing that they are being videotaped.

You've said that you disagree with the way that current police forces are trained and militarized. Since you don't agree with the protesters' methods, what do you suggest they should do instead? How would you like to see change made?

First to the bolded, to a degree yes.

You've said that you disagree with the way that current police forces are trained and militarized.
*You bet, the best weapon a cop has is that thing below his nose. Want to demilitarize the police, well demilitarize the civilians. I've already provided examples of how the police got where they are. Also they didn't arrive at it all by their lonesome. Society has had big part in it. If you think for one second that Seattle PD or any cop for that matter wanted to go quell a riot and it was a riot, in downtown Seattle your nuts. If you think they want to go stand out on a cordon line, again no. Or deal with rowdy highly agitated protesters...no. Or go to an activeshooter and it's maybe just you and another going in...again no. Or go to a DV physical in process..no. There are as  many misconceptions of cops than their are correct ones.


Since you don't agree with the protesters' methods, what do you suggest they should do instead?
*I don't agree with mob rules of looting, vandalism, etc. How many small businesses were destroyed even after they were reeling from this Covid bullshit? However, I believe now the movement generally is way more effective than it was at its start. Besides a few "Bad Apples" as the protesters are wont to say.


How would you like to see change made?
-I believe if you scroll back I listed something's but, for convenience I'll relist and even add some.

1. You want to demilitarize the police, then demilitarize the civilians. One of the key WTF moments for police departments was the LA Shootout. nothing like showing up to a gun fight and your cops are completely out match by civilian criminals. And please don't say SWAT. That was a massive response failure in the age of active shooters. Just like Columbine was the WTF for active shooters.

2. Do away with police unions, guilds, etc. THIS IS KEY. Those fuckers are responsible for keeping more bad cops in the job than any other entity.

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1  What are you willing to trade or give up. How safe do you feel with a militarized civilian population? Or walking down your streets with a seriously rolled back police? I suppose everyone will be model citizens . Rolled back traffic enforcement, general patrol, no fines, etc. Also how will the cities/counties deal with that income vacum. Criminal activity will not just go away. If it's reactive policing you want, go for it.

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate. Been a fan of them since their inception.

5. What do you want LE to do and be logically and not in some utopian fantasy world? Particularly in dense urban areas. No one has stated this and don't say the usual drumming line. How are you going to get there? You'll still have organized crime, gangs, etc. Oh and let's not forget the random active shooters in work place, schools, etc. WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

6. Another thing is, officers being allowed to resign in lieu of termination. This is how the bad ones keep finding jobs in other departments. That needs to be tracked in a data base.

7. The DOJ must be apolitical and provide effective oversight and prosecution if necessary.

8. Have a President that is not a tard.


But respect to you Merry for a dialogue. Thanks.

[11B4V]

Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.

I'll remember you said that.

[11B4V]

Nice dodge.

Issue is they are being torn down by a mob. Mob rules.

Nice dodge.

That's your issue.  You were rudely responding to my question, which was about Bristol.

I am no happier about mob violence than anyone else, but I think protests, even symbolic protests that burn flags or effigies or topple statues (or even gently lower them into a river) are a different beast from mob violence.  YMMV.

Good glad we agree.

[Eddie Teach]

Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.

It's a sign of people in rebellion. Otherwise they'd go through legal channels.

[Valmy]

Minneapolis city council pledges to defund city's police department

Damn...well I guess the rest of us will be watching with interest how this goes.

[merithyn]

But respect to you Merry for a dialogue. Thanks.

You clearly had ideas - and more experience than the rest of us - and I wanted to hear them. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

If you're asking what *I* want, the answer is pretty close to what you suggested with a few minor tweaks that probably aren't worth mentioning. But one thing that I think *has* to happen that you didn't bring up is alternatives to police response - or addendums to police response.

As was mentioned by Toni, some portion of PD funding should go toward mental health experts who are available and able to attend to calls that are "mental health crises". Obviously, those can still be dangerous, but specially trained mental health experts on the scene has been shown to de-escalate situations far more often than police alone.

Additionally, something you didn't bring up, is racial profiling/racial treatment. This is a societal problem, but the police have *got* to step up and take charge on this. The only way that's going to happen is to get rid of their safety nets (Union, allowed to quit, no national database of employment record). Those things are dangerous in that I'm not a big believer in preventing someone from doing their job for the rest of their lives over a single mistake, nor not giving them room to learn and grow. But I think that can be handled well with a lot of thought and planning. (Unlike the sex-offender's registry, which is only now becoming truly useful/fair, and that depends on the state.)

[jimmy olsen]

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1  What are you willing to trade or give up. How safe do you feel with a militarized civilian population? Or walking down your streets with a seriously rolled back police? I suppose everyone will be model citizens . Rolled back traffic enforcement, general patrol, no fines, etc. Also how will the cities/counties deal with that income vacum. Criminal activity will not just go away. If it's reactive policing you want, go for it.

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate. Been a fan of them since their inception.

5. What do you want LE to do and be logically and not in some utopian fantasy world? Particularly in dense urban areas. No one has stated this and don't say the usual drumming line. How are you going to get there? You'll still have organized crime, gangs, etc. Oh and let's not forget the random active shooters in work place, schools, etc. WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

Given how armed Americans are there would still need to be a fast reaction SWAT team like entity for active shooter type incidents, etc. But that doesn't mean it has to be connected to the current institutions.

It can be built from the ground up. And a lot of other police responsibilities can be spun off to other entities. Health and wellness checks should be done be social workers for example. Speeding and most other traffic violations can be enforced with camera's etc. I've literally never seen someone pulled over in South Korea. The only time I've seen the police on a road is when they're at the seen of an accident.

[11B4V]

But respect to you Merry for a dialogue. Thanks.

You clearly had ideas - and more experience than the rest of us - and I wanted to hear them. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

If you're asking what *I* want, the answer is pretty close to what you suggested with a few minor tweaks that probably aren't worth mentioning. But one thing that I think *has* to happen that you didn't bring up is alternatives to police response - or addendums to police response.

As was mentioned by Toni, some portion of PD funding should go toward mental health experts who are available and able to attend to calls that are "mental health crises". Obviously, those can still be dangerous, but specially trained mental health experts on the scene has been shown to de-escalate situations far more often than police alone.

Additionally, something you didn't bring up, is racial profiling/racial treatment. This is a societal problem, but the police have *got* to step up and take charge on this. The only way that's going to happen is to get rid of their safety nets (Union, allowed to quit, no national database of employment record). Those things are dangerous in that I'm not a big believer in preventing someone from doing their job for the rest of their lives over a single mistake, nor not giving them room to learn and grow. But I think that can be handled well with a lot of thought and planning. (Unlike the sex-offender's registry, which is only now becoming truly useful/fair, and that depends on the state.)

*As was mentioned by Toni, some portion of PD funding should go toward mental health experts who are available and able to attend to calls that are "mental health crises". Obviously, those can still be dangerous, but specially trained mental health experts on the scene has been shown to de-escalate situations far more often than police alone.

In Washington state it's called CIT (Crisis Intervention Training) certification that police officers can and do get. I have sent 20 or so of my officers to that certification. This certification has been in wa state for maybe a decade IIRC. And the police officers do just what you describe. It is and has been incredibly effective. Maybe wa state is ahead of the curve in this area? Don't know about the rest of the country


*Additionally, something you didn't bring up, is racial profiling/racial treatment. This is a societal problem, but the police have *got* to step up and take charge on this. The only way that's going to happen is to get rid of their safety nets (Union, allowed to quit, no national database of employment record). Those things are dangerous in that I'm not a big believer in preventing someone from doing their job for the rest of their lives over a single mistake, nor not giving them room to learn and grow. But I think that can be handled well with a lot of thought and planning. (Unlike the sex-offender's registry, which is only now becoming truly useful/fair, and that depends on the state.)

Yes it is and it needs to be a multi pronged approach to stamp it out. Departmentally, Politically, and Society itself etc.

However those nets you describe are a part of the systemic problem for the police in general. But they need to go away. How many use of force issues did that turd have in his record who killed Floyd? Too many and that goes to the heart of it IMO. He should have never been a cop let alone an FTO training new officers.

[11B4V]

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1  What are you willing to trade or give up. How safe do you feel with a militarized civilian population? Or walking down your streets with a seriously rolled back police? I suppose everyone will be model citizens . Rolled back traffic enforcement, general patrol, no fines, etc. Also how will the cities/counties deal with that income vacum. Criminal activity will not just go away. If it's reactive policing you want, go for it.

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate. Been a fan of them since their inception.

5. What do you want LE to do and be logically and not in some utopian fantasy world? Particularly in dense urban areas. No one has stated this and don't say the usual drumming line. How are you going to get there? You'll still have organized crime, gangs, etc. Oh and let's not forget the random active shooters in work place, schools, etc. WHAT DO YOU (PROTESTERS) REALISTICALLY AND LOGICALLY WANT IN POLICING. It's all just knee-jerk reaction right now. Sure defund the PDs, that will change when some jack ass is shooting up a school, mall, or concert and you don't have the cops or hardware to take him out. How do you think we got to the current state of police militarization, well your elected politicians and citizenry. The politicians will lie to your face so the protesters won't destroy their cities.

Given how armed Americans are there would still need to be a fast reaction SWAT team like entity for active shooter type incidents, etc. But that doesn't mean it has to be connected to the current institutions.

It can be built from the ground up. And a lot of other police responsibilities can be spun off to other entities. Health and wellness checks should be done be social workers for example. Speeding and most other traffic violations can be enforced with camera's etc. I've literally never seen someone pulled over in South Korea. The only time I've seen the police on a road is when they're at the seen of an accident.

*Given how armed Americans are there would still need to be a fast reaction SWAT team like entity for active shooter type incidents, etc. But that doesn't mean it has to be connected to the current institutions.

Didn't work and won't work. Waiting for SWAT and you'll have a bigger tragedy on your hands. Minutes and seconds count on an active shooters situation. See Columbine. I got to add, Tim have you ever shot an semi auto AR15? How long do you think it takes to empty a 30 round magazine, or two, or three? Remember while SWAT is getting there shit together in there ready room or where ever those prima donnas hang out, folks are dying. That patrol officer even if alone, with a patrol rifle, will be on scene quicker, and engage the shooter. If nothing more than draw the fire to himself and away from civilians. That is doctrine on active shooters response. Fuck your statement is incredibly obtuse. Sorry.


*Health and wellness checks should be done be social workers for example.
Until they get shot or killed. See my post to Merry about CIT.

*Speeding and most other traffic violations can be enforced with camera's etc.
Not successful at least here in wa state. Citizenry screamed bloody murder. MAH RIGHTS!!!!!!!


*I've literally never seen someone pulled over in South Korea. The only time I've seen the police on a road is when they're at the seen of an accident.
The U.S. is not South Korea. Stop trying to make a comparison.

[Razgovory]

Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.

I'll remember you said that.

Good, as the French say Mort aux rois.  The Confederate statues in the South and the Soviet statues across eastern Europe serve the same purpose as medieval castles did.  It's to tell the population that "We are in control.  We are everywhere and you can't escape us".

[Tamas]

In Hungary the communist statues were moved to a "statue cemetery" of sorts, you can still go and check them out iirc.

[Tamas]

This Minnesota police thing is going to be interesting. I think what the general situation calls for is more stringent control over police forces, not a sort of early communist Russia style self-organising volunteer project, but let's what they have in mind

[Sheilbh]

Just seeing the footage of the car/shooting incident in Seattle it's crazy. But also comes after the truck charging protesters in Minneapolis and is reminiscent of Charlottesville. It seems to be a new type of sort of physical attack on protesters. It's weird.

Also agree Minneapolis police thing will be fascinating - I think it makes a lot of sense to, for example, have almost emergency service social workers who have expertise in mental health. Certainly in the UK the highest proportion of deaths linked to contact with the police are mental health call-outs and I think there is an element of everything looks like a nail if you're a hammer with that. Similarly pot is decrminalised in Minnesota so hopefully you could have drug specific emergency services for drug users and then re-found the police.

It's an interesting experiment and I'm not sure how it'll work in practice.

[Josquius]

After posting a picture of his dad on civil rights marches, here's Mitt Romney joining the 1,000 Christians for BLM today:
[img width=12
This is a sign of the success of these protests. If you'd said on 1 January that by the end of the year Mitt Romney would have joined a BLM protest I think you would have been laughed out the room.

So, Romney....actually a decent guy or just wants to stick it to Trump?

[Sheilbh]

I think Romney has always been a decent guy. My view is that Romney is finally in a position where he is just himself. I think previously (or in 2008 and 2012) he was almost playing a role. He spotted a gap in the market of Presidential candidates and went for it, but I always felt it was inauthentic - and was partly why other Republican candidates held him in contempt.

I think now that ambition or possibility of becoming President has gone, now he's representing a state he loves (which was notably uncomfortable with Trump), he's able to be himself.