The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[alfred russel]

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.

Meri, you know that will never happen. Police unions, along with firefighter unions, are probably the only ones with bipartisan support.

[The Brain]

As long as government doesn't demand good results from law enforcement they are unlikely to get them. My impression is that top brass often don't lose their jobs even when their organizations display very poor public safety culture. No wonder pressure to improve doesn't reach ground level.

[Admiral Yi]

No, you have to spell out a detailed solution to the professionals who already get paid to deliver law enforcement without significant numbers of BS killings. Duh.

Zoupa doesn't, but eventually someone does.

[Valmy]

All public sector unions are sketchy in my opinion. 

[Tonitrus]

House Democrats just put a bill forward to outlaw choke-holds and several other police tactics that have proven problematic in the past.

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.

While I agree that police unions have been a problem...I can easily see the right (and not without merit) taking that football and saying that all public employee unions (teacher's unions will be the likely target here) share similar problems and that either all should go, or the fact that police unions are being singled out is illegal/unconstitutional/un-democratic/take your pick.

[Tonitrus]

All public sector unions are sketchy in my opinion. 

I do also tend to take the FDR position myself. 

[The Brain]

No, you have to spell out a detailed solution to the professionals who already get paid to deliver law enforcement without significant numbers of BS killings. Duh.

Zoupa doesn't, but eventually someone does.

The experts that already exist can do it, one would hope, or they shouldn't get paid. I don't expect the public to know how to run a nuclear reactor safely, but I certainly understand that it wants it to be done. And experts figure out the details.

Low expectations is the first step towards poor performance.

[Sheilbh]

All public sector unions are sketchy in my opinion. 

In the UK there's no police union. We had a couple of police strikes in 1918 and 1919 which, I think, terrified the government with their incipient Bolshevism. So the police were banned from having a union. There is the Police Federation which was set up by the government instead and does similar things - they provide lawyers, they negotiate pay settlements etc but they have no strike pay.

Astonishingly Theresa May's one good thing as Home Secretary was when she took on the Police Federation. She basically said they were holding the public in contempt. The racial bias in stop and search, the failings in domestic violence and other issues (Plebgate, Hillsborough, the death of Ian Tomlinson, the death of Jean-Charles de Menezes - all of which involved police cover-ups) were the fault of a "significant minority" not just a few bad apples". I think after that they stopped receiving government funding and the closed shop was ended.

Weirdly the Fire Brigade do have a union and it's one of the most hard-core, very left-wing militant unions in the country (because firefigthers are the true heroes ), police obviously tend to be right wingers with a union. I think it's similar in other European countries: there is no more tasty protest/unrest than when firemen and police clash. Those protests get violent and personal, quick

[Admiral Yi]

The experts that already exist can do it, one would hope, or they shouldn't get paid. I don't expect the public to know how to run a nuclear reactor safely, but I certainly understand that it wants it to be done. And experts figure out the details.

Low expectations is the first step towards poor performance.

All those people with doctorates in Making Sure Cops Don't Kill Black People have been doing a poor job.  I agree we should fire the lot and hire a fresh crews.  Profit!

[The Brain]

The experts that already exist can do it, one would hope, or they shouldn't get paid. I don't expect the public to know how to run a nuclear reactor safely, but I certainly understand that it wants it to be done. And experts figure out the details.

Low expectations is the first step towards poor performance.

All those people with doctorates in Making Sure Cops Don't Kill Black People have been doing a poor job.  I agree we should fire the lot and hire a fresh crews.  Profit!

*shrug* You jest, but I don't see any obvious reason why we should demand less from other sectors than we do from nuclear. Especially a sector that kills as many citizens every year as law enforcement.

[DGuller]

I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

[merithyn]

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.

Meri, you know that will never happen. Police unions, along with firefighter unions, are probably the only ones with bipartisan support.

I said that it is the best thing that can come from all of this. Minneapolis is the first place it would have to happen, because they are the reason that cop was still on the streets.

It's the smarter thing to push for instead of abolishing police departments completely.

[The Brain]

I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

Yes, decent law enforcement isn't even rocket science.

[Admiral Yi]

*shrug* You jest, but I don't see any obvious reason why we should demand less from other sectors than we do from nuclear. Especially a sector that kills as many citizens every year as law enforcement.

In nuclear I assume their are trade offs between cost and risk, and other upsides and downsides.  The choice of what trade offs to accept and which to reject is not a scientific question, it is a political question, and in every country it has been made by the political process.

[merithyn]

House Democrats just put a bill forward to outlaw choke-holds and several other police tactics that have proven problematic in the past.

IMO, the absolute best thing that can come from all of this is completely abolishing police unions. It's essential for forward progress.

While I agree that police unions have been a problem...I can easily see the right (and not without merit) taking that football and saying that all public employee unions (teacher's unions will be the likely target here) share similar problems and that either all should go, or the fact that police unions are being singled out is illegal/unconstitutional/un-democratic/take your pick.

So, having spent the bulk of my adult years in Illinois, please understand where I'm coming from on this, but....

... I don't know that that's the worst thing that can happen. I don't think they should be abolished completely - but they have way too much power in politics.

I'm a union girl at heart, but some unions are dangerous due to the power they wield. Illinois has more than proven that out.