The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[11B4V]

You just asked for a list of property of the state. Not what state.
Brit mobs are rather polite....so mob rules still.   

I asked for a list of property of the state destroyed in Bristol.

Brit mobs are more polite than even US civilian mobs.  US cop mobs are kinda the exact opposite of Brit mobs.  And US Mob mobs are worse even than US cop mobs.

Yep they gently pulled it down...

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelLiddell?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1269628569677856770&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F06%2F07%2Fworld%2Fglobal-floyd-protests-weekend-intl%2Findex.html

[grumbler]

You just asked for a list of property of the state. Not what state.
Brit mobs are rather polite....so mob rules still.   

I asked for a list of property of the state destroyed in Bristol.

Brit mobs are more polite than even US civilian mobs.  US cop mobs are kinda the exact opposite of Brit mobs.  And US Mob mobs are worse even than US cop mobs.

Yep they gently pulled it down...

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelLiddell?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1269628569677856770&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F06%2F07%2Fworld%2Fglobal-floyd-protests-weekend-intl%2Findex.html

  Like a statue can tell gentle pulling from normal pulling.  If your big complaint is that statues aren't being torn down gently enough, you don't have much to complain about.

Whether they were gentle or not, they weren't in Bristol.

[11B4V]

You just asked for a list of property of the state. Not what state.
Brit mobs are rather polite....so mob rules still.   

I asked for a list of property of the state destroyed in Bristol.

Brit mobs are more polite than even US civilian mobs.  US cop mobs are kinda the exact opposite of Brit mobs.  And US Mob mobs are worse even than US cop mobs.

Yep they gently pulled it down...

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelLiddell?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1269628569677856770&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F06%2F07%2Fworld%2Fglobal-floyd-protests-weekend-intl%2Findex.html

  Like a statue can tell gentle pulling from normal pulling.  If your big complaint is that statues aren't being torn down gently enough, you don't have much to complain about.

Whether they were gentle or not, they weren't in Bristol.

Nice dodge.

Issue is they are being torn down by a mob. Mob rules.

[Sheilbh]

So I find this interesting - historically it was a real struggle to raise the money for the Colston statue (£1,000). Very few people seem to have been keen on donating.

Also, as mentioned, the Council had proposed this wording for a second plaque - it was produced with input from various groups, including children from schools named after Colston, but rejected by the Merchant Venturers (who I think "own" the statue) as too tough on Colston:

As a high official of the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692, Edward Colston played an active role in the enslavement of over 84,000 Africans (including 12,000 children) of whom over 19,000 died en route to the Caribbean and America. Colston also invested in the Spanish slave trade and slave-produced sugar. As Tory MP for Bristol (1710-1713), he defended the city's 'right' to trade in enslaved Africans. Bristolians who did not subscribe to his religious and political beliefs were not allowed to benefit from his charities.

The Merchant Venturers' proposal for a second plaque, which was rejected by the Mayor as too exculpatory:

Edward Colston, 1636-1721, MP for Bristol 1710-1713, was one of the city's greatest benefactors.

He supported and endowed schools, almshouses, hospitals and churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. Many of his charitable foundations continue. This statue was erected in 1895 to commemorate his philanthropy.

A significant proportion of Colston's wealth came from investments in slave trading, sugar and other slave-produced goods.

As an official of the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692, he was also invlved in the transportation of approximately 84,000 enslaved African men, women and young children, of whom 19,000 died on voyages from West Africa to the CAribbean and the Americas.

So part of the issue with this statue has exactly been that the democratic system - which regulates the public space - could not agree with the "owners" of the statue over the way to contextualise this statue. I'm unsure how long the Merchant Venturers' etc should hold a veto over this use of the public space - and I'm not sure how much worse they are than the mob given that there was no second plaque and it feels like they were trying to just stop one going up.

[jimmy olsen]

Minneapolis city council pledges to defund city's police department

A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis city council has announced its intent to dismantle the city's police department and invest in community-led public safety, a move that would mark the first concrete victory in the mounting nationwide movement to defund law enforcement agencies in the aftermath of the police killing of George Floyd.

Nine of the council's 12 members announced their pledge to create a new system of public safety before hundreds of demonstrators at a rally at Powderhorn Park in south Minneapolis on Sunday afternoon.

That's impressive. Change is happening fast

[11B4V]

Minneapolis city council pledges to defund city's police department

A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis city council has announced its intent to dismantle the city's police department and invest in community-led public safety, a move that would mark the first concrete victory in the mounting nationwide movement to defund law enforcement agencies in the aftermath of the police killing of George Floyd.

Nine of the council's 12 members announced their pledge to create a new system of public safety before hundreds of demonstrators at a rally at Powderhorn Park in south Minneapolis on Sunday afternoon.

That's impressive. Change is happening fast

It hasn't happened yet. These are still politicians you know.

[merithyn]

11B4V, you clearly have an issue with how this has/is playing out. But you've not really offered anything to counter its productivity. Change is happening now. We don't know what it will look like or how it will play out, but there is no question that the protesters are being heard.

I'll point out that taking a knee was condemned, rallies for #BlackLivesMatter were condemned. Trying to take police to court was condemned. And nothing changed. Four cops killed a black man in broad daylight, knowing they were being videotaped doing it. Police are right now attacking peaceful protesters (as well as rioters) knowing that they are being videotaped.

You've said that you disagree with the way that current police forces are trained and militarized. Since you don't agree with the protesters' methods, what do you suggest they should do instead? How would you like to see change made?

[Tonitrus]

11B4V, you clearly have an issue with how this has/is playing out. But you've not really offered anything to counter its productivity. Change is happening now. We don't know what it will look like or how it will play out, but there is no question that the protesters are being heard.

I'll point out that taking a knee was condemned, rallies for #BlackLivesMatter were condemned. Trying to take police to court was condemned. And nothing changed. Four cops killed a black man in broad daylight, knowing they were being videotaped doing it. Police are right now attacking peaceful protesters (as well as rioters) knowing that they are being videotaped.

You've said that you disagree with the way that current police forces are trained and militarized. Since you don't agree with the protesters' methods, what do you suggest they should do instead? How would you like to see change made?

He did post what police reforms he thinks should be implemented...it's either several pages back or another thread, not sure which. 

[grumbler]

Nice dodge.

Issue is they are being torn down by a mob. Mob rules.

Nice dodge.

That's your issue.  You were rudely responding to my question, which was about Bristol.

I am no happier about mob violence than anyone else, but I think protests, even symbolic protests that burn flags or effigies or topple statues (or even gently lower them into a river) are a different beast from mob violence.  YMMV.

[Tonitrus]

This was it...

1. You want to demilitarize the police, then demilitarize the civilians. One of the key WTF moments for police departments was the LA Shootout. Just like Columbine was the WTF for active shooters.

2. Do away with police unions, guilds, etc.

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate.

5. Etc

6. Etc

[merithyn]

This was it...

1. You want to demilitarize the police, then demilitarize the civilians. One of the key WTF moments for police departments was the LA Shootout. Just like Columbine was the WTF for active shooters.

2. Do away with police unions, guilds, etc.

3. Defund...dicey. What are you going to defund? See #1

4. Body cam yes. If not turned on or switched off. Immediately terminate.

5. Etc

6. Etc

Thank you, Toni!

The issue, of course, is that something must force those things to happen. It's been "asked for" for years, and people have gotten nowhere.

My question is... how would 11B4V force police departments to make those changes?

[Tonitrus]

I definitely think the entire approach of how we look at public safety is definitely something that we should address (corrections and prisons as well).  However I am skeptical of rushed, "crisis-minded" approach which we may stumble into now with blanket "defund the police" ideas. 

It reminds me of the knee-jerk reaction to 9-11, where we started calling everything terrorism and rushed out lots of questionable security measures and impairments of personal liberty (i.e. the never ending Patriot Act).

How we go about policing and law enforcement as a whole can certainly stand some new ideas...and not be bound my police "tradition" or any such legacies that, like many things, can be quickly become archaic.  It has long been argued that rank-and-file police officers are not the best first-responders to things that we tend to encounter more and more in modern society, such as those having a mental illness crisis.  Those often bring about the worst examples of police conduct...mostly because they do not seem to be trained to handle it in a measured fashion.

But even if we mostly take away the beat cop or patrol officer, I still think the "police" (or to be more precise, public detectives) have a place and role when it comes to the investigation of major crimes (murder, etc), criminal conspiracies, and organized crime.  There may be a lot of situations we currently send police officers to, that might be better handled by someone else...but there is a danger I think, that inertia will just have us shift our public disdain from the old "police officer" to some new organization of what are essentially glorified social workers, who may well end up being just as mis-allocated, ill-trained, or counter productive.

[Tonitrus]

My question is... how would 11B4V force police departments to make those changes?

That is always the big question.

I suppose we often like to think that Mayors or akin to the Commander in Chief of their city, and have total/civilian control over their own police department...but I suspect that is often not the case.  Police Chiefs, or especially elected Sheriffs seem to have much more autonomy.

And the much more cynical side of me suspects that (mostly big city) PD heads likely make sure they keep any potentially criminal dirt on their mayoral counterparts (or other top civilians) handy.  Even if nothing directly conspiratorial like that, PDs, or how effective they are, are often a Mayors indirect political lifeline.

But that might be changing...

[merithyn]

My question is... how would 11B4V force police departments to make those changes?

That is always the big question.

I suppose we often like to think that Mayors or akin to the Commander in Chief of their city, and have total/civilian control over their own police department...but I suspect that is often not the case.  Police Chiefs, or especially elected Sheriffs seem to have much more autonomy.

And the much more cynical side of me suspects that (mostly big city) PD heads likely make sure they keep any potentially criminal dirt on their mayoral counterparts (or other top civilians) handy.  Even if nothing directly conspiratorial like that, PDs, or how effective they are, are often a Mayors indirect political lifeline.

But that might be changing...

Which makes the point that I'm asking.

How does one force those in charge to make the changes if not through civil unrest?

[Razgovory]

Personally, I think destroying statues is a sign of a free people. When the American Revolution broke out the people of New York destroyed the statue of George III.