Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[LaCroix]

Easy to say that when Sweden is under no serious attack.  If the safety and sovereignty of ethnic Swedes was in danger would there be no fearful actions?  If there was a country who you thought might roll in and take over at any minute?  It is called Sweden for a reason and not 'the piece of dirt in the area of the northern and western Baltic'.

Here in the United States we have people terrified of completely harmless minorities all the time.  It makes no logical sense, but in Estonia that minority actually DOES represent a existential threat.  One that could roll in and end Estonia's existence in hours.  However it is fundamentally evil to suppress minorities who individually have nothing to do with anything.  I feel bad for the Russians who are completely fucked by this sorry situation.  However I do have a hard time judging the Latvians and company too hard, because God knows what we would do in that situation.  I am glad I will never find out, the attitudes some people have around here to the Mexican and Latin American immigrants are hysterical enough and those people are about as threatening as a stiff breeze.

Anyway I was just saying that to get Latvia and the like to act differently you would need very coercive carrots and sticks.  Their national instincts are to hate and fear the Russians.

are the baltic states discriminating against russians because they are fearful of russia using russian minorities as an excuse to attack, or is there discrimination because the baltic states used to be under russia's heel which has resulted in hostility against anything considered russian? if we use our zimbabwe example, attacks on whites isn't out of fear that the whites will return to power. it's retribution.

not to mention that the russian minority in estonia doesn't pose any threat to the country. if russia wanted and could invade estonia, it would regardless of how many russians lived in the area. russia didn't invaded ukraine due to the existence of russian ethnic groups; russia used russian ethnic groups as an excuse to get what it wanted from the ukraine. the anti-russian estonian laws we're talking about came before the russian-ukraine dispute, when russia wasn't invading neighboring countries under the guise of protecting its minorities.

also, you seem to be really holding onto the concept of ethnicity. people in texas probably don't like the mass immigrants just like north dakotans don't like the mass immigrants, and ours are more white than not. i'm sure there are texans who are rah rah "keep texas texan," well, there are just as many north dakotans saying "keep north dakota north dakotan"

[Razgovory]

This is so going to fuck up the release of Combat Mission: Black Sea.

[The Larch]

IIRC what the Baltics (again, mostly Latvia and Estonia, it was different in Lithuania) did upon independence was reset their law codes back to pre-Soviet times, only giving Latvian and Estonian citizenship to people who were already citizens before the Soviet ocupation and their descendants, giving the influx of people who moved there in Soviet times and their descendants a not so subtle "go back where you belong" message. It was petty revanchism against Russians, not a deeply thought geopolitical move.

[Tamas]

IIRC what the Baltics (again, mostly Latvia and Estonia, it was different in Lithuania) did upon independence was reset their law codes back to pre-Soviet times, only giving Latvian and Estonian citizenship to people who were already citizens before the Soviet ocupation and their descendants, giving the influx of people who moved there in Soviet times and their descendants a not so subtle "go back where you belong" message. It was petty revanchism against Russians, not a deeply thought geopolitical move.

I tend to disagree. What is happening in Ukraine clearly shows that it was a very wise geopolitical move. Or not, because if the Russians stay, their second-class status will serve as a double-bonus casus belli if needed.

[garbon]

IIRC what the Baltics (again, mostly Latvia and Estonia, it was different in Lithuania) did upon independence was reset their law codes back to pre-Soviet times, only giving Latvian and Estonian citizenship to people who were already citizens before the Soviet ocupation and their descendants, giving the influx of people who moved there in Soviet times and their descendants a not so subtle "go back where you belong" message. It was petty revanchism against Russians, not a deeply thought geopolitical move.

I tend to disagree. What is happening in Ukraine clearly shows that it was a very wise geopolitical move. Or not, because if the Russians stay, their second-class status will serve as a double-bonus casus belli if needed.

Yeah seems like they have just made it way easier to make claim that Russia needs to step in to save Russian people.

[Valmy]

Or not, because if the Russians stay, their second-class status will serve as a double-bonus casus belli if needed.

Yep.

Granted with the Russian media these days they could be treating the ethnic Russians like royalty and it might not matter.

[derspiess]

So what did the Baltic states do that was so wrong?

Language tests for citizenship.

Which is sort of a big thing since it means that a lot of people born there aren't citizens.  Or citizens anywhere actually.

No.  First of all, such tests are valuable for small countries like the Baltic states in reclaiming/preserving their national identities.  Secondly, those Russians are all eligible for Russian citizenship.  It would help Russia's demographic problem a bit if these folks were repatriated back to Mother Russia.  Win-win.

[DGuller]

Fighting reported in Kiev. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuaDPDxGYYM

[Malthus]

If I was a Russian minority person in any of these places, I'd be rather nervous. What happens when (or if) Putin screws up and Russia loses its beligerent edge? The notion that having a Russian minority in your country is positively dangerous (should another like him arise in the future) will remain.

All the incentive necessary to harrass, expel, or forcibly assimilate by nasty and/or frightened ethno-nationalists. 

[The Larch]

So what did the Baltic states do that was so wrong?

Language tests for citizenship.

Which is sort of a big thing since it means that a lot of people born there aren't citizens.  Or citizens anywhere actually.

No.  First of all, such tests are valuable for small countries like the Baltic states in reclaiming/preserving their national identities.  Secondly, those Russians are all eligible for Russian citizenship.  It would help Russia's demographic problem a bit if these folks were repatriated back to Mother Russia.  Win-win.

Where would you prefer to live, in Estonia or Latvia, even as a minority there, or in Russia? Russians there don't want to return to Russia for very good reasons.

[derspiess]

Where would you prefer to live, in Estonia or Latvia, even as a minority there, or in Russia? Russians there don't want to return to Russia for very good reasons.

I wouldn't want to, either.  But I'm not Russian.  If their language, culture, etc. is so important to them then they should move to Russia.  Otherwise, make the effort to learn the majority language in that country to get citizenship there.  Unless I missed something, there doesn't seem to be much of a burden placed on ethnic Russians in the Baltic states.

Or is this all about that statue?  Are Euros still pissing their pants because the Estonians dared move a Soviet statue that was a reminder of occupation & oppression?

[The Brain]

Live by oppression, die by oppression. Russians as a collective are scum. Tear-falling pity dwells not in this eye.

[Sheilbh]

They were colonized there to solidify Soviet control.  I was not justifying anything.  I am not sure how saying 'It is hard to imagine that going well for anybody involved' means I think this is awesome or it is justified.

They were colonised but the overwhelming majority of Russians in the Baltics moved their after Stalin because they were the richest bits of the USSR. It was a very desirable place to live and work.

But these are ethnically based states, people of other ethnicities are fundamentally threatening to their existence, particularly ones from hostile neighboring countries.  That is why we fought those two world wars in Europe and all those millions of people died.  If you are going to have a state called 'Estonia' then it is going to be about the protection and sovereignty of Estonians and is going to be hostile to anything that threatens that.  Duh, water is wet.

Fine. But my issue isn't necessarily that what they're doing is wrong (though it is) but that what they're doing doesn't meet the basic standards of the EU and we shouldn't have bent the rules to let them in for political purposes. If they were out of the EU I've no doubt they'd already have changed all the problematic laws.

Incidentally Lithuania's got a very well integrated Russian-speaking minority and most ethnic Lithuanians also speak Russian (and English). Admittedly it's far smaller than in Estonia or Latvia. But what's striking is that these laws were passed in the early 90s and generally Yeltsin's government negotiated with the Lithuanians over liberalising them (they were initially like the other Baltic states). It's more justifiable now because of Putin. But has it really been that justifiable for the past 25 years? Even when Russia was weak, retreating and being patronised by the West?

Also it'd be incredibly problematic if a European country, say, Germany or England declared that they're about the 'protection and sovereignty of Germans/Englishmen'. In part that's because of the EU and European laws on human rights. It shouldn't not apply just because you're East of the Oder.

I wouldn't want to, either.  But I'm not Russian.  If their language, culture, etc. is so important to them then they should move to Russia.  Otherwise, make the effort to learn the majority language in that country to get citizenship there.  Unless I missed something, there doesn't seem to be much of a burden placed on ethnic Russians in the Baltic states.

People born in Latvia who could go back three generations don't get Latvian citizenship and don't have the citizenship of any other country. Consequently they can't own property, vote in certain elections or do anything that requires you to fill in that 'nationality' box on a form. They can remedy this, as you say, by passing tests in Latvian and proving they're earning etc. But I don't see why someone should have to do that in the country of their birth and potentially their parents' and grandparents' births too.

It's better than it was, but it's still bad.

[derspiess]

They can claim Russian citizenship. And learn Latvian or gtfo.  Latvians deserve their on country after all they've been through.

[garbon]

Next stop American citizenship only for those who speak American.