Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[Razgovory]

You must treat people well who were put in your country with the purpose of creating an existential threat to your country?  Hmmmm yeah without a pretty enormous stick and a particularly yummy carrot they are not going to do that.  Suicide is a lot to ask from a country.

they're people, not influence counters on a game board.

They were people moved to the Baltic States to act as Russia's influence counters.  They are victims here.  I specifically said that.  So...what are you lecturing me on here?  That I should ignore realities and instead demand sunshine and lollipops for all?

Edit: By the way really glad you are posting a lot more here.  You add a lot to the discussions.

Were they forced to move or was that were jobs were?  Seems like you can justify a lot of shit by not "ignoring the realities".

[Duque de Bragança]

Russians can go home to Russia.

Will the Varangian Rus' come back to Sweden ?!

[Admiral Yi]

So what did the Baltic states do that was so wrong?

Language tests for citizenship.

[Razgovory]

So what did the Baltic states do that was so wrong?

Language tests for citizenship.

Which is sort of a big thing since it means that a lot of people born there aren't citizens.  Or citizens anywhere actually.

[Sheilbh]

Yep. So they can't, say, vote in most elections or generally own property (in Latvia).

[Valmy]

Were they forced to move or was that were jobs were?  Seems like you can justify a lot of shit by not "ignoring the realities".

They were colonized there to solidify Soviet control.  I was not justifying anything.  I am not sure how saying 'It is hard to imagine that going well for anybody involved' means I think this is awesome or it is justified.  But these are ethnically based states, people of other ethnicities are fundamentally threatening to their existence, particularly ones from hostile neighboring countries.  That is why we fought those two world wars in Europe and all those millions of people died.  If you are going to have a state called 'Estonia' then it is going to be about the protection and sovereignty of Estonians and is going to be hostile to anything that threatens that.  Duh, water is wet. 

[Grinning_Colossus]

'Sweden' isn't about the protection and sovereignty of ethnic Swedes. If the nation state model intrinsically leads to the repression of minorities then it's something Western Europe is wise in moving away from, and they should guide their little siblings in the East in the same direction.

[DGuller]

'Sweden' isn't about the protection and sovereignty of ethnic Swedes. If the nation state model intrinsically leads to violence against minorities then it's something Western Europe is wise in moving away from, and they should guide their little siblings in the East in the same direction.

What do you do if you don't want to be nationalistic, but your neighbor to whom a lot of your citizens belong does?

[Grinning_Colossus]

'Sweden' isn't about the protection and sovereignty of ethnic Swedes. If the nation state model intrinsically leads to violence against minorities then it's something Western Europe is wise in moving away from, and they should guide their little siblings in the East in the same direction.

What do you do if you don't want to be nationalistic, but your neighbor to whom a lot of your citizens belong does?

Make democracy more appealing to those citizens than the alternative. Letting them experience democracy would be a good start.

[DGuller]

'Sweden' isn't about the protection and sovereignty of ethnic Swedes. If the nation state model intrinsically leads to violence against minorities then it's something Western Europe is wise in moving away from, and they should guide their little siblings in the East in the same direction.

What do you do if you don't want to be nationalistic, but your neighbor to whom a lot of your citizens belong does?

Make democracy more appealing to those citizens than the alternative. Letting them experience democracy would be a good start.

Democracy doesn't protect against peacekeeping tanks, planes, and artillery.

[Grinning_Colossus]

'Sweden' isn't about the protection and sovereignty of ethnic Swedes. If the nation state model intrinsically leads to violence against minorities then it's something Western Europe is wise in moving away from, and they should guide their little siblings in the East in the same direction.

What do you do if you don't want to be nationalistic, but your neighbor to whom a lot of your citizens belong does?

Make democracy more appealing to those citizens than the alternative. Letting them experience democracy would be a good start.

Democracy doesn't protect against peacekeeping tanks, planes, and artillery.

That's irrelevant, since in this case NATO does.

[LaCroix]

That's irrelevant, since in this case NATO does.

seriously. i'm as confused by that argument as well

[Valmy]

'Sweden' isn't about the protection and sovereignty of ethnic Swedes. If the nation state model intrinsically leads to the repression of minorities then it's something Western Europe is wise in moving away from, and they should guide their little siblings in the East in the same direction.

Easy to say that when Sweden is under no serious attack.  If the safety and sovereignty of ethnic Swedes was in danger would there be no fearful actions?  If there was a country who you thought might roll in and take over at any minute?  It is called Sweden for a reason and not 'the piece of dirt in the area of the northern and western Baltic'.

Here in the United States we have people terrified of completely harmless minorities all the time.  It makes no logical sense, but in Estonia that minority actually DOES represent a existential threat.  One that could roll in and end Estonia's existence in hours.  However it is fundamentally evil to suppress minorities who individually have nothing to do with anything.  I feel bad for the Russians who are completely fucked by this sorry situation.  However I do have a hard time judging the Latvians and company too hard, because God knows what we would do in that situation.  I am glad I will never find out, the attitudes some people have around here to the Mexican and Latin American immigrants are hysterical enough and those people are about as threatening as a stiff breeze.

Anyway I was just saying that to get Latvia and the like to act differently you would need very coercive carrots and sticks.  Their national instincts are to hate and fear the Russians.

[Razgovory]

Were they forced to move or was that were jobs were?  Seems like you can justify a lot of shit by not "ignoring the realities".

They were colonized there to solidify Soviet control.  I was not justifying anything.  I am not sure how saying 'It is hard to imagine that going well for anybody involved' means I think this is awesome or it is justified.  But these are ethnically based states, people of other ethnicities are fundamentally threatening to their existence, particularly ones from hostile neighboring countries.  That is why we fought those two world wars in Europe and all those millions of people died.  If you are going to have a state called 'Estonia' then it is going to be about the protection and sovereignty of Estonians and is going to be hostile to anything that threatens that.  Duh, water is wet.

Still I'm asking were all these people forced to live there?  I don't think either the Russian empire or the Soviet Union imagined it was going to collapse and thus wouldn't haven't of thought of themselves as "hostile neighbors" of their own state.  You are saying this is a not justification but a reality.  I don't know exactly what the difference is.  The line of thought seems similar to many radicals in Latin America.  American expats or business operating in foreign countries are part of American colonialism and are a existential threat to those countries.  I'd wager Fidel Castro thought something similar when he nationalized American companies in Cuba.

[Valmy]

Still I'm asking were all these people forced to live there?  I don't think either the Russian empire or the Soviet Union imagined it was going to collapse and thus wouldn't haven't of thought of themselves as "hostile neighbors" of their own state.  You are saying this is a not justification but a reality.  I don't know exactly what the difference is.  The line of thought seems similar to many radicals in Latin America.  American expats or business operating in foreign countries are part of American colonialism and are a existential threat to those countries.  I'd wager Fidel Castro thought something similar when he nationalized American companies in Cuba.

I am saying what the Baltic States are doing is wrong.  And indeed, just like you say, their line of thinking is a pretty common one throughout the world.  So it is pretty understandable why they are doing it and pretty understandable why it would take considerable effort to get them to do otherwise.