Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[Malthus]

The Nazi thing in relation to Ukraine has deep historical roots.

Basically, the horrors of the early 20th century in that area were attributable to the whole region being ground between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, as you no doubt all know.

The result was that every nationalist group ended up tainted in various ways by collaboration and resistance, as well as conflict with lots of competing ethnic nationalist groups. Ukraine was practically the poster child for this phenomenon. Ukraine was horribly brutalized by the Soviets under Stalin; as a result, some Ukrainian nationalist groups were very willing to collaborate with the Nazis - the Nazis needless to say had factions that encouraged this, including encouraging such groups, already prone to ethno-nationalism of a competitive nature, to emulate Nazi doctrine (including attacking other "enemy" ethnic groups, such as Jews and Poles). The Soviets labelled all ethnic nationalist groups they themselves did not directly control as "Nazis".

Not all ethnic Ukrainian resistance to the Soviets fell under the auspices of the Nazis, some resisted both Nazi and Soviet - increasingly as it became obvious that the Nazi plan for all Slavs, Ukrainians included, was possibly death or enslavement - but the Soviets naturally didn't care about such distinctions; any and all resistance to their rule became "Nazi", and the Russians kept this tradition after the fall of the Soviet Union - even though, in the modern era, the actual number of Ukrainians following Nazi doctrine is tiny (there are more who do so in Russia itself - and indeed Putinism bears more than a slight resemblance).

Hence all the reference to "Bandera" by Russians. He was the Ukrainian leader who kinda personified this theme - a far right nationalist willing to collaborate with the Nazis (who nonetheless arrested him and sent him to a concentration camp, because he wouldn't give up on his nationalism when the Nazis decided to erase Ukraine as a nation); he survived the war (the Nazis released him as their empire started to fall apart, to cause trouble for the Soviets). Instrumental in committing atrocities against Poles and Jews. Some Ukrainians remember him for his resistance to both Nazi and Soviet (overlooking his collaboration and crimes); others, condemn him for his crimes — the Russians insist that *all* Ukrainian nationalism = Banderism = Nazism.

The book "Bloodlands" is good on this topic during WW2. Basically, for those caught between Nazi and Soviet, there were few good choices, and many if not most were tainted by collaboration with one or the other; brutalized by how they were treated, they tended to brutalize in turn. Not everyone, obviously, but it was a definite theme - and each ethnic group has bitter memories of this. Jews remembered for a long time how Ukrainian nationalists collaborated with the Nazis in murdering Jews. Ukrainians remembered for a long time how many Soviet commissars were Jewish. This was all deliberate on the part of both empires, who tried as hard as they could to implicate and hijack nationalist groups for their own ends. That Russia still apes this narrative shows how long the damage has lasted - though in Ukraine itself, it would appear, the effect has mostly worn off: the place has a Jewish President after all, and by every account (including personal anecdote) there is no longer any incompatibility with being "Jewish" and a "Ukrainian nationalist" - a complete change from WW2 era attitudes!

Far right and neo-Nazis still exist in Ukraine of course, but their actual influence is small and well outside the ambit of mainstream Ukrainian nationalism.

[Barrister]

What's been cool to see from afar is how Ukraine seems to be developing more of a culture of a national ideal based on shared values, rather than based on language or ethnic identity.  Those values being freedom, democracy, and a European identity.  There appears to be a complete collapse of pro-Russian sentiment within Ukraine even amongst Russian speakers, and you see people from other former soviet republics come to Ukraine to fight for those ideals.

But of course that also goes to show how much of a threat a free Ukraine is to Putin...

[Jacob]

More on the sabotage angle: https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/05/02/putin-humiliation-ukrainian-saboteurs-inflict-devastating-blow-on-russian-supply-lines/

Putin humiliation: Ukrainian saboteurs inflict devastating blow on Russian supply lines

VLADIMIR PUTIN suffered a major setback to his military campaign after saboteurs inflicted a devastating blow on Russian supply lines.

The Ukrainian attackers destroyed a railway bridge in the Kursk region close to the border with Ukraine. The incident occurred on the same day as a fire broke out on property belonging to Russia's Ministry of Defence in the Belgorod region. The railway line where the bridge collapsed runs from the city of Kursk to Sudzha and then continues onto Ukraine towards the city of Sumy. It is used mainly for the transportation of goods and is a key supply line for the Russians.

Christo Grozev, a Bellingcat investigative journalist, tweeted: "Russia now also admits "saboteurs" blew up a railroad bridge near Kursk."

The damage to the bridge was initially confirmed by the governor of the Kursk region on his official Telegram channel. Roman Starovoit said: "Today at approximately 11.20am officials discovered partial damage to the bridge located at the 67 km mark on the rail line between Sudzha and Sosnovy Bor. "Special services are at the scene and attempting to ascertain the cause of the damage."

Later in a video, the governor added: "Dear friends, unfortunately, we have now confirmed that the damage to the bridge was caused by an act of sabotage. "Therefore we have initiated a criminal investigation and we will give you more details in due course."

Photos of the bridge show substantial as opposed to "partial" damage, eliciting ironic comments from social media users. One said: "Fortunately, it was only partially destroyed!" While another wrote: "They can still run a very small train over it so partial works."

Russian authorities are facing a huge challenge to prevent sabotage attacks against infrastructure targets in the country. There are many Ukrainians who have lived in Russia well before hostilities broke out in February and who would have every motivation to take up arms against the Kremlin. According to a 2010 census, 1.9 million people identified themselves as Ukrainians. This represents 1.4 percent of the total population in Russia. Ukrainians are in effect the third-largest ethnic group after Russians and Tartars.

Dmitry Grozoubinski, an expert on trade and diplomacy, said Russia faced an almost impossible task to secure its key infrastructure from future attacks. He wrote: "Don't envy Russian policy-makers trying to deal with this. Consider what it would be like to try to protect Russian infrastructure targets from highly motivated creative operators that look like Russians, speak Russian, and in many cases probably have Russian passports. Especially as almost anything can be a target. Every bridge, rail head, factory, power plant, radio tower, military facility, depot, oil refinery..."

On Sunday, a large fire broke at a facility belonging to the Russian Ministry of Defence in the Belgorod region. The city of Belgorod, which is the region's administrative centre, is just 40 km from Ukraine's border. The blaze injured one person and damaged seven homes in the locality.

Vyacheslav Gladkov, the region's governor, said: "A fire has occurred on the territory of one of the facilities belonging to the MoD. All operational services are working at the site and all essential measures are being taken to ensure safety. There is information about one injured person among local residents. The injury is not serious and there is no danger to life. All necessary medical help is being provided."

[Malthus]

What's been cool to see from afar is how Ukraine seems to be developing more of a culture of a national ideal based on shared values, rather than based on language or ethnic identity.  Those values being freedom, democracy, and a European identity.  There appears to be a complete collapse of pro-Russian sentiment within Ukraine even amongst Russian speakers, and you see people from other former soviet republics come to Ukraine to fight for those ideals.

But of course that also goes to show how much of a threat a free Ukraine is to Putin...

I agree with all of this.

Of note is that Zelenskyy is not only Jewish, but his first language was Russian. Part of his original platform was to try to erase the tensions between Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers ... in this he has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams - but that was mostly Putin's doing. The war has united Ukrainians like nothing else could, there is practically no popular support for Putin's invasion from within Ukraine itself.

[Legbiter]

Just saw a report that the warehouse of the book publisher that was ordered to remove all references to "Ukraine" is on fire.

The Smoker of Smolensk strikes again!

[celedhring]

More on the sabotage angle: https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/05/02/putin-humiliation-ukrainian-saboteurs-inflict-devastating-blow-on-russian-supply-lines/

Putin humiliation: Ukrainian saboteurs inflict devastating blow on Russian supply lines

VLADIMIR PUTIN suffered a major setback to his military campaign after saboteurs inflicted a devastating blow on Russian supply lines.

The Ukrainian attackers destroyed a railway bridge in the Kursk region close to the border with Ukraine. The incident occurred on the same day as a fire broke out on property belonging to Russia's Ministry of Defence in the Belgorod region. The railway line where the bridge collapsed runs from the city of Kursk to Sudzha and then continues onto Ukraine towards the city of Sumy. It is used mainly for the transportation of goods and is a key supply line for the Russians.

Christo Grozev, a Bellingcat investigative journalist, tweeted: "Russia now also admits "saboteurs" blew up a railroad bridge near Kursk."

The damage to the bridge was initially confirmed by the governor of the Kursk region on his official Telegram channel. Roman Starovoit said: "Today at approximately 11.20am officials discovered partial damage to the bridge located at the 67 km mark on the rail line between Sudzha and Sosnovy Bor. "Special services are at the scene and attempting to ascertain the cause of the damage."

Later in a video, the governor added: "Dear friends, unfortunately, we have now confirmed that the damage to the bridge was caused by an act of sabotage. "Therefore we have initiated a criminal investigation and we will give you more details in due course."

Photos of the bridge show substantial as opposed to "partial" damage, eliciting ironic comments from social media users. One said: "Fortunately, it was only partially destroyed!" While another wrote: "They can still run a very small train over it so partial works."

Russian authorities are facing a huge challenge to prevent sabotage attacks against infrastructure targets in the country. There are many Ukrainians who have lived in Russia well before hostilities broke out in February and who would have every motivation to take up arms against the Kremlin. According to a 2010 census, 1.9 million people identified themselves as Ukrainians. This represents 1.4 percent of the total population in Russia. Ukrainians are in effect the third-largest ethnic group after Russians and Tartars.

Dmitry Grozoubinski, an expert on trade and diplomacy, said Russia faced an almost impossible task to secure its key infrastructure from future attacks. He wrote: "Don't envy Russian policy-makers trying to deal with this. Consider what it would be like to try to protect Russian infrastructure targets from highly motivated creative operators that look like Russians, speak Russian, and in many cases probably have Russian passports. Especially as almost anything can be a target. Every bridge, rail head, factory, power plant, radio tower, military facility, depot, oil refinery..."

On Sunday, a large fire broke at a facility belonging to the Russian Ministry of Defence in the Belgorod region. The city of Belgorod, which is the region's administrative centre, is just 40 km from Ukraine's border. The blaze injured one person and damaged seven homes in the locality.

Vyacheslav Gladkov, the region's governor, said: "A fire has occurred on the territory of one of the facilities belonging to the MoD. All operational services are working at the site and all essential measures are being taken to ensure safety. There is information about one injured person among local residents. The injury is not serious and there is no danger to life. All necessary medical help is being provided."

Yeah, I was mildly surprised to learn that one of my former workmates - who I had always assumed to be Russian since she lived in Moscow, was actually half-Ukrainian and very much against the war. She's no saboteur material but she helped some of her family in Ukraine leave the country (and ultimately she GTFOd herself).

[The Minsky Moment]

Basically, for those caught between Nazi and Soviet, there were few good choices, and many if not most were tainted by collaboration with one or the other; brutalized by how they were treated, they tended to brutalize in turn. Not everyone, obviously, but it was a definite theme - and each ethnic group has bitter memories of this.

When Yugoslavia broke up, my grandfather - originally born and raised in Lemberg/Lvov/Lviv - was pro Milosevic.  For him it was a simple equation: the Croatians were Nazis, the Serbs were against the Nazis, the Serbs were the good guys.  (And the Bosnian Muslims = "Arabs" = bad).  It wasn't an accurate view of the realities of WW2 much less the state of play in the 90s but that's how he saw the world.  Ukraine rarely came up but his views were not positive.  Pre WW1 Galicia Ukrainians and Jews were often allied politically but in his mind Ukraine was defined more as Bandera and Demjanjuk.

That's the generation that came up in the 30s and 40s - the generation that among other things founded Israel and supplied its leaders for decades.  But that generation is long gone now, in Israel and the diaspora.  Most Jews in the 90s looked at Milosevic's ethnic cleansing and did not see a new version of a WW2 era plucky anti-fascist partisan but rather someone following a Serbian variant on Mein Kampf.  And it is even more glaring with Putin now.

[Sheilbh]

What's been cool to see from afar is how Ukraine seems to be developing more of a culture of a national ideal based on shared values, rather than based on language or ethnic identity.  Those values being freedom, democracy, and a European identity.  There appears to be a complete collapse of pro-Russian sentiment within Ukraine even amongst Russian speakers, and you see people from other former soviet republics come to Ukraine to fight for those ideals.

But of course that also goes to show how much of a threat a free Ukraine is to Putin...

This started with Euromaidan/the Revolution of Dignity and has been hardened over the last 8 years. I mentioned before but when I was travelling around Ukraine it was striking that every town and city had makeshift memorials - often just a wooden board with laminated photos - to their town's casualties either in the revolution or in the Donbas in the last 8 years. But also the way that graffitied, protest centre Maidan has been preserved. It was clear in that memorialisation that there's some identity being created at a grass-roots, popular level.

It's why I thought Russia would face far more resistance than in 2014 or than they expected. This is hardening that identity which is in opposition to Russia, but it's been going for a while.

[Barrister]

What's been cool to see from afar is how Ukraine seems to be developing more of a culture of a national ideal based on shared values, rather than based on language or ethnic identity.  Those values being freedom, democracy, and a European identity.  There appears to be a complete collapse of pro-Russian sentiment within Ukraine even amongst Russian speakers, and you see people from other former soviet republics come to Ukraine to fight for those ideals.

But of course that also goes to show how much of a threat a free Ukraine is to Putin...

This started with Euromaidan/the Revolution of Dignity and has been hardened over the last 8 years. I mentioned before but when I was travelling around Ukraine it was striking that every town and city had makeshift memorials - often just a wooden board with laminated photos - to their town's casualties either in the revolution or in the Donbas in the last 8 years. But also the way that graffitied, protest centre Maidan has been preserved. It was clear in that memorialisation that there's some identity being created at a grass-roots, popular level.

It's why I thought Russia would face far more resistance than in 2014 or than they expected. This is hardening that identity which is in opposition to Russia, but it's been going for a while.

Oh absolutely.  You can even look further back to the Orange Revolution of 2004-2005, but yes EuroMaidan and the 2014 Russian invasion moved that process along.

[The Minsky Moment]

Tucker Carlson's latest on the war

The war in Ukraine is designed to cause regime change in Moscow. They want to topple the Russian government. That would be payback for the 2016 election. So, this is the logical, maybe the inevitable end stage of Russiagate . . . We don't arm Ukraine so we can help the Ukrainians. They're merely unfortunate pawns in all of this. We arm Ukraine so that we can punish Russia. Why? For stealing Hillary Clinton's coronation. 

If only we had taken Adam Schiff seriously, as he said it again, and again, and again. But now we can't help but take Adam Schiff seriously because he's one of the prime movers of this war. Adam Schiff spent this weekend in Eastern Europe checking on the progress of the war he has done so much to bring about.

At what point does Murdoch and Fox as an institution face real questions about their enthusiastic backing of this asinine and corrosive Putinist war propaganda?

[HVC]

Hmm, wonder what would happen if they sanction tucker?

[Malthus]

Basically, for those caught between Nazi and Soviet, there were few good choices, and many if not most were tainted by collaboration with one or the other; brutalized by how they were treated, they tended to brutalize in turn. Not everyone, obviously, but it was a definite theme - and each ethnic group has bitter memories of this.

When Yugoslavia broke up, my grandfather - originally born and raised in Lemberg/Lvov/Lviv - was pro Milosevic.  For him it was a simple equation: the Croatians were Nazis, the Serbs were against the Nazis, the Serbs were the good guys.  (And the Bosnian Muslims = "Arabs" = bad).  It wasn't an accurate view of the realities of WW2 much less the state of play in the 90s but that's how he saw the world.  Ukraine rarely came up but his views were not positive.  Pre WW1 Galicia Ukrainians and Jews were often allied politically but in his mind Ukraine was defined more as Bandera and Demjanjuk.

That's the generation that came up in the 30s and 40s - the generation that among other things founded Israel and supplied its leaders for decades.  But that generation is long gone now, in Israel and the diaspora.  Most Jews in the 90s looked at Milosevic's ethnic cleansing and did not see a new version of a WW2 era plucky anti-fascist partisan but rather someone following a Serbian variant on Mein Kampf.  And it is even more glaring with Putin now.

I was just thinking that Putin importing Chechens to commit war crimes in Ukraine seems straight out of the WW2-era playbook.

Indeed, the whole of Putin's campaign has a weirdly retro feel to it, from its motives, propaganda, and even right down to the errors in Russian military tactics.

[The Minsky Moment]

Hmm, wonder what would happen if they sanction tucker?

It's really mind-blogging.  The invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with Putin, with his cronies, with Russia at all.  Nothing to do with Russian imperial history or cultural assumptions, nothing do with Russia's alleged security paranoia.  Nothing to do with Ukraine and the Ukrainians, nothing to do with Zelensky or the division among Ukrainian and Russian speakers, with Maidan and its aftermaths, with Donetsk and Luhansk.  Pace Mearshimer, nothing to do with NATO or the history of western dealings with Russia after the Cold War.

No it turns out the real cause of the war is that "They" made it happen.  "They" being a Jewish Congressman from California wanting payback because Clinton lost the 16 election.

How can a self-described "news" organization broadcast such garbage?

[crazy canuck]

Easy, they say it is entertainment, not news.  And any rational person would see it as such.  The problem is the American right (hell most of the right these days) is comprised of people who do not fit that description.

[Malthus]

Hmm, wonder what would happen if they sanction tucker?

It's really mind-blogging.  The invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with Putin, with his cronies, with Russia at all.  Nothing to do with Russian imperial history or cultural assumptions, nothing do with Russia's alleged security paranoia.  Nothing to do with Ukraine and the Ukrainians, nothing to do with Zelensky or the division among Ukrainian and Russian speakers, with Maidan and its aftermaths, with Donetsk and Luhansk.  Pace Mearshimer, nothing to do with NATO or the history of western dealings with Russia after the Cold War.

No it turns out the real cause of the war is that "They" made it happen.  "They" being a Jewish Congressman from California wanting payback because Clinton lost the 16 election.

How can a self-described "news" organization broadcast such garbage?

When you have bought into a fact-free narrative, you lose the ability to care whether what you are broadcasting is garbage or not. All you care about is views and cash from sponsors.

The real question then becomes, not the failure to have any journalistic ethics, but the eternal one of why this garbage attracts viewers - or who is providing the sponsorship. Which is more worrisome - that this kind of thing has a genuine base of support in the US, or that it is bought and paid for by the Kremlin? Or maybe it is both?