Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[Sheilbh]

That is something of a fair point but the requests are not totally analogous. This isn't a post colonial state wanting to move on from a name imposed by colonizers. It has something similar to Tyr's point on nationalism: they want the English names to be more reflective of the Ukrainian pronunciation than Russian, but of course the histories are intertwined and Ukraine has a mixed population.

I think it is a post-imperial state and there are similar points around the position of Ireland in particular. And from my understanding this is not controversial within Ukraine for Russian-speaking Ukrainians - at least since 2014 (because being invaded creates or solidifies a distinctive cohesive sense of nationhood regardless of language). Russian-speaking does not mean that they identify as Russian or necessarily use Russian names - this was doubtless more contentious pre-2014.

It's not directly analagous to a colonial situation - but there is an end of empire element to it - it's perhaps more similar to Ljubljana v Laibach. The only difference is that Russian and Ukrainian are more intertwined as languages and people than, say, Austrians with their empire so the changes are smaller. But don't see this as directly to do with the war (it's just we're getting explainers because it's in the news) or any different from their requests - which go back to the 90s - for people to stop saying "the Ukraine".

I'm really resisting the renaming right now because it has a strong "freedom fries" energy. I'll probably give that up in a few days.

I think Stockholm Mule or Stolichnaya (distilled in Latvia) becoming Stoli () have strong "freedom fries" energy.

The naming conventions just seem like a standard end of empire thing to me. Ukraine's been saying for years that they'd like foreigners to use Ukrainian names, which reflects their status as an independent state and now there's a war people know about it and are doing it. I don't support imposing Ukrainian on people or using it as a condition for accessing public services etc - but I think a country is entitled to say that's the language for place names or things like official languages in parliament etc.

So, maybe the embargo on Russian oil and gas is closer than we think? Or is this in case Putin closes the taps?

Oil - yes. Gas - nowhere near.

At least that's my read - I think various oil majors have said they're not going to buy Russian oil, it is failing to find a price on the market etc. But on gas they are, at the minute, irreplaceable for Europe even with extra US/Gulf LNG. It will take time and building infrastructure to get to an embargo on that - I think the IEA have published a list of actions which they think could allow Europe to turn off Russian gas in a year.

[alfred russel]

I think it is a post-imperial state and there are similar points around the position of Ireland in particular. And from my understanding this is not controversial within Ukraine for Russian-speaking Ukrainians - at least since 2014 (because being invaded creates or solidifies a distinctive cohesive sense of nationhood regardless of language). Russian-speaking does not mean that they identify as Russian or necessarily use Russian names - this was doubtless more contentious pre-2014.

It's not directly analagous to a colonial situation - but there is an end of empire element to it - it's perhaps more similar to Ljubljana v Laibach. The only difference is that Russian and Ukrainian are more intertwined as languages and people than, say, Austrians with their empire so the changes are smaller. But don't see this as directly to do with the war (it's just we're getting explainers because it's in the news) or any different from their requests - which go back to the 90s - for people to stop saying "the Ukraine".

My understanding is that there is controversy surrounding the laws around the russian language in ukraine and this is something of an extension of the sentiment promoting those laws.

I was an early adopter of not saying "the Ukraine" but am standing my ground with "Kiev". Also pronouncing "Keev" just sounds worse.

[FunkMonk]

To be fair I've called it Stoli since forever because it is just easier to say, especially when drunk

[Admiral Yi]

The tough one is White Russian.  That's not going to go easily.

[Sheilbh]

To be fair I've called it Stoli since forever because it is just easier to say, especially when drunk

Oh same - I also think it's what they call it on Ab Fab.

I was an early adopter of not saying "the Ukraine" but am standing my ground with "Kiev". Also pronouncing "Keev" just sounds worse.

That's a perfectly respectable reason Although I think it's not Keev either - I thought it was Kee-iv (with the i being a short i like in big)?

[The Brain]

Könugård is easier to pronounce.

[Grey Fox]

Quebec francophone media switch from Kiev to Kyiv. I don't think any presenter has mastered the pronunciation of Kyiv yet.

@AR you should use Kyiv. It's like refusing to call it New Orleans and using Nouvelle-Orléans because "well they speak french there".

[Admiral Yi]

Könugård is easier to pronounce.

Yotaburry?

[The Brain]

Könugård is easier to pronounce.

Yotaburry?

Close. The sounds are a bit different though.

[Sheilbh]

Now I know nothing about military things - but am I wrong to think that this is basically advocating for something that doesn't exist?

Jacqui Heinrich
@JacquiHeinrich
Separately, some members of congress are beginning to advocate for a non-kinetic no-fly zone – something to the effect of using electromagnetic pulse, sonar, and cyber to keep Russian jets on the ground so they can never take off. Unclear how much support this will end up getting

[garbon]

Uniqlo has said it will continue to sell clothing in Russia as "clothing is a necessity."

[Duque de Bragança]

It's not directly analagous to a colonial situation - but there is an end of empire element to it - it's perhaps more similar to Ljubljana v Laibach. The only difference is that Russian and Ukrainian are more intertwined as languages and people than, say, Austrians with their empire so the changes are smaller. But don't see this as directly to do with the war (it's just we're getting explainers because it's in the news) or any different from their requests - which go back to the 90s - for people to stop saying "the Ukraine".

Laibach would disagree with you, given how the exonym was reclaimed by the most famous Slovenian band.

Now, if you said Agram, fallen in disuse, even in Germanophone countries...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laibach

Plus Habsburg Empire ≠ III Reich (the latter much more problematic for obvious reasons).

[Tamas]

Now I know nothing about military things - but am I wrong to think that this is basically advocating for something that doesn't exist?

Jacqui Heinrich
@JacquiHeinrich
Separately, some members of congress are beginning to advocate for a non-kinetic no-fly zone – something to the effect of using electromagnetic pulse, sonar, and cyber to keep Russian jets on the ground so they can never take off. Unclear how much support this will end up getting

 

Also, can we PLEASE fight the further spread of "cyber" to mean cyber security?

[Syt]

Wanna cyber?

[The Brain]

I suggest use of pimperial instead of post-imperial.