Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[Razgovory]

More than 25 years. But you are conflating concerns over the US using their military as a sword instead of a shield.

There is no sword-shield dichotomy.  We are simply resented. One of the primary reasons why you see so many people side with Palestine is because they want to see an American ally destroyed.  Understandably, when the American ally to be destroyed is in Europe, such as Ukraine, they are less anxious to see it destroyed.  When the tanks are rolling towards them, their reflexive Anti-Americanism abates somewhat.  Still, you do have a quite a few people that want to see Ukraine beaten, because they think of it as hurting the US.

[crazy canuck]

More than 25 years. But you are conflating concerns over the US using their military as a sword instead of a shield.

There is no sword-shield dichotomy.  We are simply resented. One of the primary reasons why you see so many people side with Palestine is because they want to see an American ally destroyed.  Understandably, when the American ally to be destroyed is in Europe, such as Ukraine, they are less anxious to see it destroyed.  When the tanks are rolling towards them, their reflexive Anti-Americanism abates somewhat.  Still, you do have a quite a few people that want to see Ukraine beaten, because they think of it as hurting the US.

The problem with the internet age this sort of nonsense was now widely read. And  some people are influenced by it.

[Valmy]

Poland.  C'mon Valmy, we came from the Pdx boards, we've heard Euros tell us for 25 years that they want US intervention in global affair to decrease.  Now they are getting it, and they are still angry with us.

Poland? Ok cool. I have often felt bad about them. They always seemed to go out of their way on our behalf the most.

I don't think that is actually what they are getting. Yes the United States is not supporting Ukraine. Yes the United States is withdrawing security guarantees from NATO. Sure.

But withdrawing from intervention in global affairs? No. We are still pressuring Ukraine to do what we want them to do and now the Euros have to oppose us. That is not withdrawing from international affairs, that is opposing them in international affairs. So of course they would be mad at us.

[Sheilbh]

There is no sword-shield dichotomy.  We are simply resented. One of the primary reasons why you see so many people side with Palestine is because they want to see an American ally destroyed.  Understandably, when the American ally to be destroyed is in Europe, such as Ukraine, they are less anxious to see it destroyed.  When the tanks are rolling towards them, their reflexive Anti-Americanism abates somewhat.  Still, you do have a quite a few people that want to see Ukraine beaten, because they think of it as hurting the US.

I think that's true of a relatively small section of the far left - but they have been consistent. This world view is basically the Jeremy Corbyn, Trotstkyite anti-imperialist view.

The US is the imperial hegemon, therefore any force that is being backed by the US is imperialist and any force opposing them is anti-imperialist. As good leftists, one should side with the anti-imperialists. Those people have been consistently opposed to Western support for Ukraine. For example, Corbyn will always speak at a protest but was recently at one with "one message for Donald Trump: hands off Gaza". On Ukraine no mention of Trump but saying we should "fund welfare, not warfare" and attacking Starmer: "if [he] wants to take pride in militaristic jingoism, then he must accept the shame of a more unstable and unequal world it helps create. Perhaps he should take moment to pause, reflect and ask himself what happened last time a Labour Prime Minister appointed himself the messiah of the free world." And reiterating his "call for peace to stop the endless loss of life". I think there's similar attitudes with Melenchon and parts of the German left who are at least Putin-curious.

FWIW I don't think the US has very much to do with why so many people support Palestine. I think for many people who are basically pro-US, liberal world order types supporting Ukraine and Palestine is absolutely coherent and not really motivated by the US' position one bit.

There's plenty of anti-Americanism - but I feel it's a bit "you're so vain" if you think view on the Israel-Palestine conflict are about America

[Valmy]

More than 25 years. But you are conflating concerns over the US using their military as a sword instead of a shield.

There is no sword-shield dichotomy.  We are simply resented. One of the primary reasons why you see so many people side with Palestine is because they want to see an American ally destroyed.  Understandably, when the American ally to be destroyed is in Europe, such as Ukraine, they are less anxious to see it destroyed.  When the tanks are rolling towards them, their reflexive Anti-Americanism abates somewhat.  Still, you do have a quite a few people that want to see Ukraine beaten, because they think of it as hurting the US.

Ok so this springs from some victim persecution complex? Because the people on the Paradox Boards were nuts?

You realize half those people were weird Wehraboos, especially once HoI came out.

[Sheilbh]

Incidentally, re. Poland. Poland spends 4-5% of GDP on defence, has participated in every recent American war, was singled out for praise as a model ally by Hegseth and is the EU country most determined to keep/build ties with the US under Trump.

There's an argument that what the Trump administration is doing is a salutory shock to Europe to get its house in order on security. It needs to be a nasty shock or the Europeans will just drift along on US security (as we have since the last Trump administration). Then you see this which is just domineering bullying by the powerful of the weak - this "say thank you" stuff is repulsive:


I'd also add on Israel-Palestine - most European government backed Israel including with arms. The UK sent a carrier and was flying missions with the US to disrupt Iranian missiles. In large part I think that was because of the US position. Those same governments are the ones being frustrated by the US now. So I don't get the connection.

Edit: I am also struck by the overlap of arguments about Zelensky and Ukraine with the revisionist WW2 takes (basically Churchill and "financial interests" did it) from the likes of Darryl Cooper with Tucker Carlson. And just today I see he's now popping up on Joe Rogan - the guy's an out- and-out Holocaust denier and a number of big podcasts have basically memed themselves into being so "free speech" that they can't say no. This stuff on the fringes is alarming and it matters because the firewalls are (and have been) collapsing everywhere for the last 9 years.

[Valmy]

My God Rubio, you are a piece of shit.

[The Brain]

The US is completely toxic. All US suppliers have to be phased out.

[crazy canuck]

In fairness Rubio probably has nothing to do with drafting his social media posts, now that those tasks have been delegated to the Russians

[Razgovory]

There is no sword-shield dichotomy.  We are simply resented. One of the primary reasons why you see so many people side with Palestine is because they want to see an American ally destroyed.  Understandably, when the American ally to be destroyed is in Europe, such as Ukraine, they are less anxious to see it destroyed.  When the tanks are rolling towards them, their reflexive Anti-Americanism abates somewhat.  Still, you do have a quite a few people that want to see Ukraine beaten, because they think of it as hurting the US.

I think that's true of a relatively small section of the far left - but they have been consistent. This world view is basically the Jeremy Corbyn, Trotstkyite anti-imperialist view.

The US is the imperial hegemon, therefore any force that is being backed by the US is imperialist and any force opposing them is anti-imperialist. As good leftists, one should side with the anti-imperialists. Those people have been consistently opposed to Western support for Ukraine. For example, Corbyn will always speak at a protest but was recently at one with "one message for Donald Trump: hands off Gaza". On Ukraine no mention of Trump but saying we should "fund welfare, not warfare" and attacking Starmer: "if [he] wants to take pride in militaristic jingoism, then he must accept the shame of a more unstable and unequal world it helps create. Perhaps he should take moment to pause, reflect and ask himself what happened last time a Labour Prime Minister appointed himself the messiah of the free world." And reiterating his "call for peace to stop the endless loss of life". I think there's similar attitudes with Melenchon and parts of the German left who are at least Putin-curious.

FWIW I don't think the US has very much to do with why so many people support Palestine. I think for many people who are basically pro-US, liberal world order types supporting Ukraine and Palestine is absolutely coherent and not really motivated by the US' position one bit.

There's plenty of anti-Americanism - but I feel it's a bit "you're so vain" if you think view on the Israel-Palestine conflict are about America

A massive amount of support for Palestine, outside the immediate Middle East, has been fueled by the Soviet Union.  If you wanted to support in your anti-imperialist struggle you needed to toe the line with Israel.  The Soviets are gone now, but 30 years of propaganda made an impact.  While many on the far left are so anti-American that they support Russia in the Ukraine, most of the left don't go that far.  Still, the anti-Americanism in the far-left to the left in the form of antizionism. 

One of the most common things I hear from antizionists is that the Israel is a US colony in the Middle East, so Israel and the US is tied up in the minds of these people.  If it weren't for the US I don't think that many people besides Arabs and Muslims, who are fueled by racial, Nationalist, and Religious animosity, would care.  It would be viewed the same way as other wars as the Middle East and Africa.

[Valmy]

Edit: I am also struck by the overlap of arguments about Zelensky and Ukraine with the revisionist WW2 takes (basically Churchill and "financial interests" did it) from the likes of Darryl Cooper with Tucker Carlson. And just today I see he's now popping up on Joe Rogan - the guy's an out- and-out Holocaust denier and a number of big podcasts have basically memed themselves into being so "free speech" that they can't say no. This stuff on the fringes is alarming and it matters because the firewalls are (and have been) collapsing everywhere for the last 9 years.

Those kinds of fringe beliefs are increasingly mainstream among those kinds of right wing influencers these days. Fortunately the normie Republican hasn't totally bought in, but it is spreading and rapidly. Just like the anti-vaccine panic quickly went from insane far left hippie weirdos to millions of people once the right wing influencers got ahold of it.

[crazy canuck]

Is there such a thing as a Republican normie anymore?

[Zoupa]

That's maybe 10% of Republicans, tops. The rest drunk the kool aid a while ago.

[Sheilbh]

Probably one for the Americans and me reading too much into things - but "say thank you" feels like Rubio is mimicking Vance, no?

[The Brain]

Is there such a thing as a Republican normie anymore?

No. Anyone who has been a Republican since AT LEAST the coup attempt is a complete nutjob who loves Daddy Putin. No sane person has thought that the GOP is better than the Democrats for years.