Another US school shooter - Portland, this time

[derspiess]

Cops never raid the wrong house...fuck you.

Oh no, sir.  Fuck you

Maybe when your house is broken into while you're on vacation, they'll respond to the wrong house then, too.  Asshole.

Yeah, probably.  If they can pull themselves away from their donuts to respond at all.

[Barrister]

That's OK, Indiana did one better in 2012:  Mitch Daniels allowed an amendment to the Castle Doctrine law, so residents are now permitted to use deadly force against police officers if they feel they are subject to an "unlawful intrusion."  Supported by the NRA, of course.

Unnecessary--  cops never raid the wrong house.

If you or I make a mistake on the job we get a stern talking to.

When cops make a mistake - they deserve to die?!?

[Valmy]

Man make a joke about Spicey being a wannabe cop killer and he really runs with it.

[derspiess]

If you or I make a mistake on the job we get a stern talking to.

When cops make a mistake - they deserve to die?!?

That's why you double-check the address.  You bust into my house with guns drawn, I may not have enough time to figure out what is going on before I start shooting.  Particularly if you do a shitty job announcing yourself.

[Kleves]

By God, in America you have the right to start shooting before you know what's happening. Make them take that right from your (and your victim's) cold dead hands.

[Valmy]

If you or I make a mistake on the job we get a stern talking to.

When cops make a mistake - they deserve to die?!?

That's why you double-check the address.  You bust into my house with guns drawn, I may not have enough time to figure out what is going on before I start shooting.  Particularly if you do a shitty job announcing yourself.

Ok you are taking this too far.  You seriously would start shooting if a whole squad of dudes burst into your house with their guns out?  Are you that eager to orphan your children?  I mean there is self defense and there is suicide.

[Ideologue]

Fwiw, the Illinois law, as I understand it, doesn't make it lawful to deliberately shoot cops performing their duties.  It makes it lawful to accidentally shoot cops performing their duties.

That said, I don't know how big an issue this ever was, but if a cop breaks into the wrong house and gets his head blown off, do we actually want to send that person to gaol for murder?  If so, why?  Because a life must be paid with life?  That's idiotic.

I'm also not a huge fan of civil servants who volunteer and get paid to do a job being elevated beyond ordinary citizens.  If what turns out to be a harmless drunk breaks into my house and I, reasonably apprehensive of my personal safety, kill him, that's a-ok; I get to feel bad (I probably would not, beyond a vague, shrugging regret--but you never know).  If a cop breaks down my door without a proper warrant, and I kill him, that's suddenly much, much worse?  There are some state-centric arguments that I am sympathetic to on this one, though.

I do have some misgivings about the potential practical outcome, since the practical outcome of Castle Doctrine laws could easily be a lot of legally-sanctioned first degree murders.  But is there a lot of indication that this is the case?  Are there enough people using the laws to thrill-kill that the benefits of the laws are outweighed?

All that said, I don't know why we just don't legalize spring traps if we're going to legalize shooting anybody that enters a home without an invitation.

[derspiess]

You know, at say 3:30 in the morning I'm not sure what the hell would happen.  My motivation would be to protect my wife & children. 

Thankfully I live in a decent enough neighborhood to where a police raid would be an extremely unlikely on my street.  So then a botched raid would hopefully be near impossible.  So it's kind of a moot point for me personally.  Glad you're so fascinated by it, though.

[Valmy]

Thankfully I live in a decent enough neighborhood to where a police raid would be an extremely unlikely on my street.  So then a botched raid would hopefully be near impossible.  So it's kind of a moot point for me personally.  Glad you're so fascinated by it, though.

To be fair it is no more unlikely than criminals breaking into your house while you are there.

[derspiess]

To be fair it is no more unlikely than criminals breaking into your house while you are there.

I doubt that.

[Valmy]

To be fair it is no more unlikely than criminals breaking into your house while you are there.

I doubt that.

You just said your house is in a decent area with practically no crime.

[derspiess]

You just said your house is in a decent area with practically no crime.

I didn't say anything about the crime, but yeah it's a pretty safe street.  Still, a home invasion is more likely than a botched police raid.

Not that I have to prove to you why I keep firearms for self defense.

[PRC]

You take the guns away. Using Force.

MOLON LABIA

You'd get in a shootout with the Feds if they did come to take them?  I'd figure you'd either just give them up or try and hide them.

I'd get in a shootout if Grey Fox came & tried to take them.

Also I just wanted to post that play on words

I'm curious what your average American citizen would do if it came about that some guns were going to be seized.  Not all of them, but for example just say your AR-15 style weapons.  I imagine most people would turn them in (probably in exchange for cash value or some kind of compensation) but I'm sure you would have the militia types refusing to give them up leading to arrests and shootouts but I'd guess that would be the extreme minority.  You'd have the outcry and the complaints but overall I think it would go smoothly.

[CountDeMoney]

Fwiw, the Illinois law, as I understand it, doesn't make it lawful to deliberately shoot cops performing their duties.  It makes it lawful to accidentally shoot cops performing their duties.

If you believe you're subject to an "unlawful intrusion", then you're provided a legally sanctioned course of action.  Unfortunately, that leaves the yahoo-in-question to determine at that moment what is an "unlawful intrusion";  now, whether or not ZOMG THIS PIG IS UNLAWFULLY INTRUDING UPON MAH STATION WAGON is determined to be a valid defense later is kinda useless if the yahoo-in-question believes that shooting first is OK in the first place.  So much for that whole courts thing.

They later amended "law enforcement official" in the law to the more loosely defined "public servant" instead, so it's open season on the local zoning assessor knocking on your front door as well.

[CountDeMoney]

If you or I make a mistake on the job we get a stern talking to.

When cops make a mistake - they deserve to die?!?

That's why you double-check the address.  You bust into my house with guns drawn, I may not have enough time to figure out what is going on before I start shooting.  Particularly if you do a shitty job announcing yourself.

Ok you are taking this too far.  You seriously would start shooting if a whole squad of dudes burst into your house with their guns out?  Are you that eager to orphan your children?  I mean there is self defense and there is suicide.

derfetus is hardcore.