What the Fuck is Going On with Perceptions of Racism by the Left These Days?

[derspiess]

Good Morning, Grumbles

[grumbler]

Good Morning, Grumbles

And the rest of the day to you, Spicey.

[Eddie Teach]

I assume it's because Raz and Spice either don't have or reject the sex/gender dichotomy framework the issue is usually discussed in.

Gender is a fluid social construct, but sex isn't really mutable. I think the easier (and healthier) option for people who believe theirs are at odds is to adjust their concept of gender rather than to go through radical cosmetic surgery and hormone treatments.

[Ideologue]

If you're 40, it's probably easier.  If you're 12, I strongly suspect it's easier and healthier to undergo hormone therapy.

[Razgovory]

Malthus, I'd expect you not to buy into this false definition of "delusion."

Under that definition, gay dudes are just people who are deluded into believing they want to fuck men.

I assume it's because Raz and Spice either don't have or reject the sex/gender dichotomy framework the issue is usually discussed in.

Nonsense.  I suggest delusion because that is what we typically call a person who has a false belief contrary to known evidence.  I ask if it's theoretically possible for a man to be deluded into thinking he's a woman?  If that is possible how would you distinguish this delusion from being transsexual?

[Ideologue]

Raz, I explained this already, and you're just arguing for the sake of it.  To recapitulate: transwomen* are aware they have a penis, a Y chromosome, and a male hormonal balance.  This does not fit their mental ideal of themselves, leading to distress, but that does not constitute a "delusion."

Treating a transwoman in the initial stages as a woman is aspirational and polite, and though it may not be very faithful to reality in narrow terms of present physical form, it's not delusional in the sense that gender is a social construct and involves substantially more than the presence of a penis, Y chromosome, etc., including those things you may have heard of called "feelings."

*just to keep the pronouns straight, but the same applies to transmen

[Jacob]

Nonsense.  I suggest delusion because that is what we typically call a person who has a false belief contrary to known evidence.  I ask if it's theoretically possible for a man to be deluded into thinking he's a woman?  If that is possible how would you distinguish this delusion from being transsexual?

It seems to me the difference is that if it was a delusion, as per your scenario, the man who delusionally thinks he's a woman would claim to have the body of a woman when in observable fact he does not. The transgendered woman, conversely, would feel that she ought to have the body of a woman and the fact that she does not is a cause for distress.

You speak of observable fact. We can observe what someone's body looks like. If someone insists that their body is different from observable fact, then I suppose calling them delusional makes sense.

But if someone insists that they ought to have a body that's different from what they have, that they feel like their body does not represent who they are psychologically and emotionally, then that is not contrary to observable fact and thus cannot, by your own schema, be labelled a delusion.

[Valmy]

That is a good distinction Jacob.

[Ideologue]

FU, Valmy.

[Razgovory]

That seems fair enough.

[Sheilbh]

I'm with Jake, Garbo and Ide. As unusual coalition of the willing as I've ever seen.

[Ideologue]

I didn't think it was that unusual.

[garbon]

Do the 4 of us differ so radically on basic social decorum?

[Razgovory]

Well shelf and Ide are genuine socialists, and I'm deeply disturbed.  Despite our common ground we often disagree.

[Ideologue]

Shaun Caislean, socialist?  LOL ok.