What the Fuck is Going On with Perceptions of Racism by the Left These Days?

[Razgovory]

I am saying a person who believes they are something that they are physically aren't, is similar to a person who believes they are something they physically aren't.  Would you deny someone who believe the are a dog, is a dog?

[Valmy]

I am saying a person who believes they are something that they are physically aren't, is similar to a person who believes they are something they physically aren't.  Would you deny someone who believe the are a dog, is a dog?

Maybe they are physically a female in some way?  Maybe it is in the brain structure or something?  I honestly do not know.  Again not my business.

[Jacob]

I am saying a person who believes they are something that they are physically aren't, is similar to a person who believes they are something they physically aren't.  Would you deny someone who believe the are a dog, is a dog?

Raz, if you have any transgendered friends or associates you should be aware that that line of reasoning and argument is likely to be seen as demeaning. This may matter to you if you value those relationships.

I have no interest in being the spokesperson for transgender issues here on languish (or elsewhere, for that matter) nor in having this particular debate with you. But I will say that transgendered people, the medical establishment, as well as the general consensus amongst the progressive side of the political spectrum (and possibly outside of it as well) is that there are considerable differences between being transgendered or otherwise fluid on the gender spectrum and thinking you are a dog.

If you are interested in finding out why that is I recommend you look around a bit. It's not that difficult to find resources; you can probably even find people who'll explain it to you in a way that makes sense to you if you don't approach them in a demeaning fashion.

On the other hand, if you are just looking for an internet-standard point and counterpoint argument then, like I said, I'm not interested.

[garbon]

What if she switches back?  Is he then a man who had gender dysmorphia and now is a man again?  Or what about someone in mid-transition?

However they want to be addressed.  Not my business to make decisions like that.

Yeah I agree with this and what Ide said. Even if I might still have questions around the phenomena*, it doesn't cost me to refer to someone how they like to be referred.

*As someone who insists they are really male but in a woman's body is counter to my view of the world that gender is sort of arbitrary/mutable and genders are fixed things that one can know to which one fundamentally belongs. If I check that I'm a male on a form it is really more so that I am recognizing a societal label and that I may have some of the behaviors/traits that society associates with men - but not so much that I feel like a male. I'm not even totally sure what it means to feel like a particular gender.

[Grinning_Colossus]

I'm not sure it's quite as clear-cut as that, Raz. Even ignoring the confusion caused by socialization and gender roles, many people experiencing gender dysphoria seem to have neurological structures that are more similar to those found in the opposite biological sex. For some people gender isn't an integral part of identity (if I woke up as a woman tomorrow I imagine I'd be cool just being a lesbian), but for some it is, and I can't really make judgments on something so personal that I haven't experienced, so I think we might as well just acknowledge them as what they want to be.

In a perfect world we'd all be able to switch our sex back and forth at will anyway.

[Ideologue]

What if she switches back?  Is he then a man who had gender dysmorphia and now is a man again?  Or what about someone in mid-transition?

However they want to be addressed.  Not my business to make decisions like that.

Yeah I agree with this and what Ide said. Even if I might still have questions around the phenomena*, it doesn't cost me to refer to someone how they like to be referred.

*As someone who insists they are really male but in a woman's body is counter to my view of the world that gender is sort of arbitrary/mutable and genders are fixed things that one can know to which one fundamentally belongs. If I check that I'm a male on a form it is really more so that I am recognizing a societal label and that I may have some of the behaviors/traits that society associates with men - but not so much that I feel like a male. I'm not even totally sure what it means to feel like a particular gender.

Awful.

[Malthus]

I am saying a person who believes they are something that they are physically aren't, is similar to a person who believes they are something they physically aren't.  Would you deny someone who believe the are a dog, is a dog?

It is like what Howard Cosell said when Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammad Ali: a person has a right to decide how they are addressed.

Presumably that only applies to sincerely held beliefs - if you are being trolled, someone wants to be addressed as "God" or something, there is no reason to go along with it. The issue then turns on whether you think people who believe they are transgendered are trolling. I see no particular reason to believe that, so I feel it is right to extend them the courtesy of referring to them as they would prefer.

[Razgovory]

Jake, what I know of the mental health establishment is that is quite a bit of debate on the issue (this isn't out of the ordinary, since there is disagreement on even basic things in mental health), and the DSM IV lists these as mental disorder (I don't know about the DSM V).  I brought up the dog thing from personal experience.  I would like to ask you one last question though, which I believe is at the heart of what I'm getting at.  How would you, distinguish between a person who is transgendered and someone who simply has a delusion they are of a different gender?

Anyone can answer this last question. BTW.

[derspiess]

You said you weren't really sure you could buy that he was a racist despite the fact he kept showing up to Aryan Nation rallies.  I found that amusing.

Is that the same thing as being okay with him?  I've never been okay with him. 

Anyway, my impression was that he attended a couple of their meetings to make contacts with them since they more or less faced a common "enemy".  Extremist types do this a lot-- this does not necessarily mean a full endorsement of each other's views or agenda.  It's obviously bad enough that he didn't have any qualms about attending the meetings. 

Randy Weaver may well be a racist-- I don't know and really don't care.  He's sufficiently weird and marginalized to where it really doesn't make much difference to me.

[Razgovory]

You said you weren't really sure you could buy that he was a racist despite the fact he kept showing up to Aryan Nation rallies.  I found that amusing.

Is that the same thing as being okay with him?  I've never been okay with him. 

Anyway, my impression was that he attended a couple of their meetings to make contacts with them since they more or less faced a common "enemy".  Extremist types do this a lot-- this does not necessarily mean a full endorsement of each other's views or agenda.  It's obviously bad enough that he didn't have any qualms about attending the meetings. 

Randy Weaver may well be a racist-- I don't know and really don't care.  He's sufficiently weird and marginalized to where it really doesn't make much difference to me.

You should be reveling in this thread, everyone's coming down on me for not being progressive here.

[Valmy]

In a perfect world we'd all be able to switch our sex back and forth at will anyway.

We are sort of born with our physical sex, so I presume you mean gender?  Or are we looking forward to a future where we can hop from one body to the next?

[Malthus]

In a perfect world we'd all be able to switch our sex back and forth at will anyway.

We are sort of born with our physical sex, so I presume you mean gender?  Or are we looking forward to a future where we can hop from one body to the next?

I have a few way-stations on that journey in mind for myself ... 

[Grinning_Colossus]

The latter -- Ian M. Banks-style body craziness. Gotta aim high.

[Malthus]

Jake, what I know of the mental health establishment is that is quite a bit of debate on the issue (this isn't out of the ordinary, since there is disagreement on even basic things in mental health), and the DSM IV lists these as mental disorder (I don't know about the DSM V).  I brought up the dog thing from personal experience.  I would like to ask you one last question though, which I believe is at the heart of what I'm getting at.  How would you, distinguish between a person who is transgendered and someone who simply has a delusion they are of a different gender?

Anyone can answer this last question. BTW.

I guess my answer is that, in terms of answering how they should be addressed, I wouldn't. If they sincerely believe themselves transgendered, it is really unimportant to me whether they are right or suffering from a delusion.

[derspiess]

You should be reveling in this thread, everyone's coming down on me for not being progressive here.

Nah, I'm kind of with you on it.  I think Ide was being hypersensitive for jumping your shit for the "he/she" thing, especially since Buddha once identified as a "he" and then later as a "she".

Out of politeness I'd call Buddha a she now since that's what she prefers, but on a high level I'm also skeptical on feeding someone's gender delusions.