Socialsim built the middle class in America

[Jacob]

United Kingdom

Pretty sure the government was involved in that.

You don't get to use "it's a democratic government so it's the citizens" when the argument is about whether slavery can be abolished without resorting to government action.

[Razgovory]

WHY DOES LACK OF COMPLETE STATE CONTROL OF THE ECONOMY EQUALS LEGALISATION OF SLAVERY YOU TWAT?!

There no requirement for "complete state control", slavery is a state of nature, just like owning other things.  That the strong can make the weak do what they want is ancient.  It predates all governments, just as owning anything else does.  It is a property right, a negative right and a natural right (not that not all natural rights are good).  It requires no government.  The idea that you can't own other human beings is a new concept.  It has only ended by goverment actions.

Now true, government has gotten involved in slavery, codifying what can and can't be done.  This is not dissimilar to other government intrusion in other parts of the economy.  For instance, workers rights, cruelty to animals, environmental laws etc.  Governments did not create the right to own animals or employ people.  It regulates existing rights.

Slavery is one of the major flaws in libertarian ideology.  A libertarian type state with limited government has an extremely difficult time stopping existing slavery, since it requires a vast government effort, an anathema to the libertarian.  Second, slavery can theoretically coexist with libertarian ideas, if slavery is voluntary.  Let's take the mantra "It's my body, I can do with it what I want".  Could I sell that body into slavery?  I don't see any reason why not.  Pretend that you have no money but you need a loan, instead of putting your home or car as collateral, could you not put yourself as collateral? If the loan is not repaid, could you be taken as a slave, perhaps permanently perhaps temporarily.  The only need of government in this situation is to make sure contracts are upheld, which most libertarians believe is important.  It doesn't matter what the contract actually is, so long as both sides agree to it without.  I'm not alone in this idea, some prominent libertarians have expressed the same idea.

[Norgy]

In our unfortunate culture these owners were called "citizens", and they were more tyrannical then most kings, sultans, presidents, or premieres.  The Hungarians under Soviet rule were infinitely more free then then chattel slaves.  The tyranny of these "citizens" was only stopped by massive state action.

Several of these "citizens" took action to free their slaves and the government stepped in to pass laws to keep them from doing so (or rather make it unfeasible).  Because the state was about preserving the slave system.  You cannot have it both ways here Raz.  You cannot hold the private sector entirely responsible for slavery and give the state all the credit for ending it.  Both had massive roles in both.

Okay, give me one state that eradicated slavery entirely by the volition of private citizens.

United Kingdom

Right. Not by law then? 

[Admiral Yi]

Apropos of nothing, I just recently learned that Delaware was a slave state.

[grumbler]

Slavery was neither established nor abolished by governments.  It was made legal or illegal by governments.  It existed de facto before governments, and exists de facto today.

[derspiess]

Apropos of nothing, I just recently learned that Delaware was a slave state.

Duh. Biden informed everyone about that a long time ago.

[Admiral Yi]

[citizen k]

Alright, but apart from  interstate highway system, schools, atom bombs, and industrial infrastructure what has socialism ever done for us?

[Capetan Mihali]

Delaware also used a whipping post for penal sanctions as late as the 1950s.

[grumbler]

Alright, but apart from  interstate highway system, schools, atom bombs, and industrial infrastructure what has socialism ever done for us?

Brought peace?

[Jacob]

It's kind of wack to me that "socialism" seems to have become a synonym for "basic government responsibilities" in this discussion.

[Admiral Yi]

I think most of us are just goofing on Ide's goofiness.

[Josephus]

Alright, but apart from  interstate highway system, schools, atom bombs, and industrial infrastructure what has socialism ever done for us?

Brought peace?

Shut Up

[garbon]

Slavery was neither established nor abolished by governments.  It was made legal or illegal by governments.  It existed de facto before governments, and exists de facto today.

Yeah it seemed odd to ask for examples of abolishing something that never ceased to exist.

[Eddie Teach]

WHY DOES LACK OF COMPLETE STATE CONTROL OF THE ECONOMY EQUALS LEGALISATION OF SLAVERY YOU TWAT?!

I thought he was trying to caricature your own position as "taxation = slavery", but with Raz you never know.