The slow death of free speech

[Malthus]

I agree with the article.

Also I really hate multiculturalism.  Some cultures are different and equal.  Some are different and better.  Some are different and much, much worse.  And we can't have any evolution toward the ideal human culture if debate on which is which is silenced.

"Multiculturalism" is not the idea that all cultures are equally good, much less the notion that the relative worth of cultural expressions cannot be debated - it is the idea that the government should not be in the business of enforcing adherence to one set of cultural norms (usually, those of the majority) over another.

[Valmy]

"Multiculturalism" is not the idea that all cultures are equally good, much less the notion that the relative worth of cultural expressions cannot be debated - it is the idea that the government should not be in the business of enforcing adherence to one set of cultural norms (usually, those of the majority) over another.

Is that it?  Because it always sounded more complicated than that.

[Jacob]

"Multiculturalism" is not the idea that all cultures are equally good, much less the notion that the relative worth of cultural expressions cannot be debated - it is the idea that the government should not be in the business of enforcing adherence to one set of cultural norms (usually, those of the majority) over another.

Is that it?  Because it always sounded more complicated than that.

That's basically it, though there are plenty of straw-men versions set up by those looking to justify the government imposing their favoured cultural norms.

[Malthus]

"Multiculturalism" is not the idea that all cultures are equally good, much less the notion that the relative worth of cultural expressions cannot be debated - it is the idea that the government should not be in the business of enforcing adherence to one set of cultural norms (usually, those of the majority) over another.

Is that it?  Because it always sounded more complicated than that.

The set of opposites is multiculturalism vs. assimilation (often described as "cultural mosaic" vs. "melting pot").

The actual policies vary - from on the one hand positive government encouragement for different cultures (could be satyrized as 'hand-outs for each cultural group to have its own little folk dance troupe') through simply even-handed non-intervention.

Similarly, assimilation can vary from even-handed non-intervention through Grallionite policies.

In the middle, "multiculturalism" and the "melting pot" can look pretty well identical, in practical terms - on the one hand the government can allow all cultures equal reign and no interfere with them in the confident expectation that they will flourish, and on the other, the government can allow all cultures equal reign and no interference in the confident expectation that everyone will eventually assimilate into the background culture. 

[Valmy]

the government can allow all cultures equal reign and no interference in the confident expectation that everyone will eventually assimilate into the background culture. 

The Valmy plan.

[The Brain]

I agree with the article.

Also I really hate multiculturalism.  Some cultures are different and equal.  Some are different and better.  Some are different and much, much worse.  And we can't have any evolution toward the ideal human culture if debate on which is which is silenced.

"Multiculturalism" is not the idea that all cultures are equally good, much less the notion that the relative worth of cultural expressions cannot be debated - it is the idea that the government should not be in the business of enforcing adherence to one set of cultural norms (usually, those of the majority) over another.

Not true in Sweden.

[Malthus]

the government can allow all cultures equal reign and no interference in the confident expectation that everyone will eventually assimilate into the background culture. 

The Valmy plan.

The reason why anti-multiculturalists sometimes dislike the Valmy plan: there in no guarantee that the composition of the "background culture" will not be influenced by outsiders - i.e., which way the "assimilation" will go. See Quebec, use of English in; US, use of Spanish in.

[Valmy]

The reason why anti-multiculturalists sometimes dislike the Valmy plan: there in no guarantee that the composition of the "background culture" will not be influenced by outsiders - i.e., which way the "assimilation" will go. See Quebec, use of English in; US, use of Spanish in.

That is not a bug in the Valmy plan, it is a feature.

But I do not regard preserving American culture as it was as important, merely preserving American culture.  Schmoozing like a putz with immigrants is how we get wonderful American cultural things like gratuitous Yiddish.

[Jacob]

I generally agree with you, Malthus, but I don't think the binary is "mosaic" vs "melting pot"; in my view there's a third common approach which is "assimilation".  In my view the  "melting pot"  approach has a goal of the different constituent cultures merging into a single culture, but with each culture contributing various parts; this is different than the not uncommon view that people of different cultures should abandon their culture and simply adopt the allegedly superior majority culture.

There's a difference between abandoning your culture in favour of the state sanctioned culture, and having parts of your culture amalgamated into the state sanctioned one.

Other than that quibble, we are in agreement

[Duque de Bragança]

 Still a good at Greer's cultural relativism. A quick check confirmed it, even giving a BBC link and of course lots of blogs having a field day with leftist feminism nonsense.

[Jacob]

Still a good at Greer's cultural relativism. A quick check confirmed it, even giving a BBC link and of course lots of blogs having a field day with leftist feminism nonsense.

?

[Valmy]

Still a good at Greer's cultural relativism. A quick check confirmed it, even giving a BBC link and of course lots of blogs having a field day with leftist feminism nonsense.

It strikes me as unlikely that clitoridectomies would be something leftist feminists are even neutral about, but to be fair I rarely hear them address it.

[Malthus]

I generally agree with you, Malthus, but I don't think the binary is "mosaic" vs "melting pot"; in my view there's a third common approach which is "assimilation".  In my view the  "melting pot"  approach has a goal of the different constituent cultures merging into a single culture, but with each culture contributing various parts; this is different than the not uncommon view that people of different cultures should abandon their culture and simply adopt the allegedly superior majority culture.

There's a difference between abandoning your culture in favour of the state sanctioned culture, and having parts of your culture amalgamated into the state sanctioned one.

Other than that quibble, we are in agreement

Fair. At the centre though they all tend to converge - what differs is the expectation of eventual outcome on the part of the observer.

A multiculturalist expects that each culture will continue vibrantly on its own, as part of a "cultural mosaic".

A believer in the "melting pot" expects that the cultures will, as the label states, melt together, each contributing something.

An assimilationist believes that the virtues of his or her own culture are so evident that people will, if given the opportunity, freely adopt it.

People arguing for government intervention tend to be those who prefer one or another of these outcomes, but do not really believe they will come about without some sort of intervention.

Myself? I tend to believe a bit in all of them - that is, in my opinion, assuming no government policies or intervention, what the future holds is a "melting pot" society with some unsassimilated groups within it, and one that likely adopts many of the inherent virtues of already-established Western society (for example: equal status for women, tolerance of homosexuality, etc.).

[Ed Anger]

I like tacos. But that is about enough of Mexican culture that I want. I don't need the overuse of eyeliner and makeup on the chicks, the bad driving or the awful music.

[Valmy]

I like tacos. But that is about enough of Mexican culture that I want. I don't need the overuse of eyeliner and makeup on the chicks, the bad driving or the awful music.

Well don't move down here then

Though I cannot help but notice the Tejano and Latino music is sounding more like American pop all the time :valmyplan: