Men With Guns Are Also Active Elsewhere.

[mongers]

I was more interested in the armed men intimidating with impunity state officials angle.

[Ed Anger]

Yes, I was late with this.

[Norgy]

I love my country, I don't see it as a necessary evil.

Wow.  So to you your country = a very large federal government?  Not so much the people?

He said he doesn't see the government as a necessary evil, I thought. That's different from "country = very large federal government".

Also, presumably in a representational democracy, the government represents the people and the country. It's supposed to be of the people, for the people, no?

In an ideal world. Nowadays, we are seeing candidates bought and sold. Left and right. Organised labour and government employees own the Labour Party here. The Conservatives are owned by capital interests. No government can be formed without one of the two these days. So it's basically a choice between plague and cholera.

[Neil]

I love my country, I don't see it as a necessary evil.

Wow.  So to you your country = a very large federal government?  Not so much the people?

He said he doesn't see the government as a necessary evil, I thought. That's different from "country = very large federal government".

Also, presumably in a representational democracy, the government represents the people and the country. It's supposed to be of the people, for the people, no?

In an ideal world. Nowadays, we are seeing candidates bought and sold. Left and right. Organised labour and government employees own the Labour Party here. The Conservatives are owned by capital interests. No government can be formed without one of the two these days. So it's basically a choice between plague and cholera.

And even ignoring the representative portions of the government, bureaucrats employed by the government are just as likely to engage in empire-building and other behavior that isn't in the public interest as any other kind of bureaucrat.

[Barrister]

I love my country, I don't see it as a necessary evil.

Wow.  So to you your country = a very large federal government?  Not so much the people?

He said he doesn't see the government as a necessary evil, I thought. That's different from "country = very large federal government".

Also, presumably in a representational democracy, the government represents the people and the country. It's supposed to be of the people, for the people, no?

In an ideal world. Nowadays, we are seeing candidates bought and sold. Left and right. Organised labour and government employees own the Labour Party here. The Conservatives are owned by capital interests. No government can be formed without one of the two these days. So it's basically a choice between plague and cholera.

And even ignoring the representative portions of the government, bureaucrats employed by the government are just as likely to engage in empire-building and other behavior that isn't in the public interest as any other kind of bureaucrat.

We're motivated solely by our desire to serve the public interest.

[MadImmortalMan]

I read a post elsewhere from someone local to Nevada, and that person claimed that cattle ranching in that area is growing increasingly less economically viable in large part due to decreasing rainfall.

It wasn't a for or against argument, but merely a note that cattle ranching is under increasing economic pressure in that part of Nevada (or perhaps the whole state?)

There has been a drought (which further limits the number of head of cattle any given acreage can support, whether the land is under BLM control or not), but I don't think that this is seen as a trend so permanent as to call it "increasingly less viable."  The problem is that ranchers would obviously rather over-graze land they rent than land they own, so federal lands are more subject to abuse than private land.

It's less the drought than the horses.

We've got these "wild" horses out there eating everything all summer. They are a foreign invasive species but BLM lets them go wild out there and every winter rounds them all up and feeds them. They can't survive otherwise. So now the wild sheep, mountain goats, mule deer and sage grouse are harder and harder to find. The horses are eating all their habitat.

[Neil]

I love my country, I don't see it as a necessary evil.

Wow.  So to you your country = a very large federal government?  Not so much the people?

He said he doesn't see the government as a necessary evil, I thought. That's different from "country = very large federal government".

Also, presumably in a representational democracy, the government represents the people and the country. It's supposed to be of the people, for the people, no?

In an ideal world. Nowadays, we are seeing candidates bought and sold. Left and right. Organised labour and government employees own the Labour Party here. The Conservatives are owned by capital interests. No government can be formed without one of the two these days. So it's basically a choice between plague and cholera.

And even ignoring the representative portions of the government, bureaucrats employed by the government are just as likely to engage in empire-building and other behavior that isn't in the public interest as any other kind of bureaucrat.

We're motivated solely by our desire to serve the public interest.

Even if that were true of bureaucrats, you're a lawyer.  People don't become lawyers unless there's hate in their heart.  Hell, the entire profession of lawyering depends on empire-building.

[Barrister]

Even if that were true of bureaucrats, you're a lawyer.  People don't become lawyers unless there's hate in their heart.  Hell, the entire profession of lawyering depends on empire-building.

But I direct my hate towards those people who deserve it, like shoplifters, wife-beaters, pot-heads and single mothers.

[Norgy]

I love my country, I don't see it as a necessary evil.

Wow.  So to you your country = a very large federal government?  Not so much the people?

He said he doesn't see the government as a necessary evil, I thought. That's different from "country = very large federal government".

Also, presumably in a representational democracy, the government represents the people and the country. It's supposed to be of the people, for the people, no?

In an ideal world. Nowadays, we are seeing candidates bought and sold. Left and right. Organised labour and government employees own the Labour Party here. The Conservatives are owned by capital interests. No government can be formed without one of the two these days. So it's basically a choice between plague and cholera.

And even ignoring the representative portions of the government, bureaucrats employed by the government are just as likely to engage in empire-building and other behavior that isn't in the public interest as any other kind of bureaucrat.

Pretty much, yes. And rendering representative democracy a fine idea at the time, but a brilliant mistake.

[grumbler]

He said he doesn't see the government as a necessary evil, I thought. That's different from "country = very large federal government".

Also, presumably in a representational democracy, the government represents the people and the country. It's supposed to be of the people, for the people, no?

I was talking about the United States as a whole, not Raz.  If you have read any history, you will discover that the founders of the US very much viewed government as a necessary evil (they were, after all, Enlightenment liberals and government as a necessary evil was a central idea of the Enlightenment).  If you read the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence, the Federalist papers, and the like, you will find many examples of arguments where the necessity of a given government power is weighed against the downsides of giving government that power.  Unlike the Westminster model, the US model is a model of government in which the people are sovereign and government is just what the people tolerate to get its benefits.

It isn't a matter of loving your country if you love government, or being obligated to love government or be guilty of not loving your country.  It is a matter of believing that the people are the country and the sovereign, and government is the servant, not the master.

[Maximus]

Pretty much, yes. And rendering representative democracy a fine idea at the time, but a brilliant mistake.

The worst system of government, in fact.

Except for all the others.

[Norgy]

Pretty much, yes. And rendering representative democracy a fine idea at the time, but a brilliant mistake.

The worst system of government, in fact.

Except for all the others.

I agree. Even the notion of being able to influence policy making is valuable in itself. It empowers us. The fact that so few of us take part in elections is troubling, though.

[Jacob]

In an ideal world. Nowadays, we are seeing candidates bought and sold. Left and right. Organised labour and government employees own the Labour Party here. The Conservatives are owned by capital interests. No government can be formed without one of the two these days. So it's basically a choice between plague and cholera.

Yeah, of course there is horse trading and vested interests. Those vested interests also exist in non-representative democracies, but the conflicts between them have even worse resolution mechanics.

Capital interests will always have a strong influence on government policy; the point of representative democracy is not to remove their ability to influence policy, but to channel it into less destructive methods and to give other interests a seat at the table.

[Jacob]

It's less the drought than the horses.

We've got these "wild" horses out there eating everything all summer. They are a foreign invasive species but BLM lets them go wild out there and every winter rounds them all up and feeds them. They can't survive otherwise. So now the wild sheep, mountain goats, mule deer and sage grouse are harder and harder to find. The horses are eating all their habitat.

That sounds crappy

[Norgy]

In an ideal world. Nowadays, we are seeing candidates bought and sold. Left and right. Organised labour and government employees own the Labour Party here. The Conservatives are owned by capital interests. No government can be formed without one of the two these days. So it's basically a choice between plague and cholera.

Yeah, of course there is horse trading and vested interests. Those vested interests also exist in non-representative democracies, but the conflicts between them have even worse resolution mechanics.

Capital interests will always have a strong influence on government policy; the point of representative democracy is not to remove their ability to influence policy, but to channel it into less destructive methods and to give other interests a seat at the table.

It boils down to a game of positions. Who can get what position. I think the Scandiweenian countries have been successful because none have been neglected, except perhaps the Slargosian racists. And like you say, conflict resolution has been rather peaceful since the 20s and 30s. I believe Denmark had an agreement between organised labour, employers and the state in place already in 1899?

But several of those attributes are present in a fascist system. The three-part regime of labour, capital and state is a wet dream of Mussolini.
Just sayin', as I have had ample time to study the phenomenon of Italian fascism. And yes, it is back.