Buying a New (Used) Car

[sbr]

Pre-approved at the Credit Union and got my tax return back this morning and now it's time to buy a new, pre-owned, car!  My motto with primary modes of transportation and water heaters is: I replace them on my terms, not theirs.  And it is that time for my 2000 Chrysler Grand Voyager Mini Van with 220K miles.

At this point I am planning on getting a truck, and if I do it will almost certainly be a Toyota.  I also prefer to buy from a dealer, but that isn't set in stone or anything.

Between running cars until they almost fall apart, and getting the van from my dad for free, I have not bought a car in the "internet age"  and I am wondering what has changed (if anything) from the bad old days. 

-Where to look?  I have been poking around on some dealer websites, autotrader.com, and a couple other random places; is there any other places I am missing that don't involve walking a bunch of lots with some schmuk salesman?

-How negotiable are prices these days?  With all of the information in the world available at everyone's fingertips it seems the old multi-hour haggling sessions would be a thing of the past.  Yea or nay?

-Any other tricks to use in the battle against cars salesmen and their "Sales Managers"?

[CountDeMoney]

Lots of dealerships have used cars and trucks on the lot; check out a local Toyota dealership's website and see what they've got.
re: tricks, not too many to use when it comes to pre-owned;  since they're used, it's not like they have a whole lot of margin to tinker with, so negotiating room is negligible compared to buying a brand new car.
Find yourself a nice return from a  3-year lease, probably won't have more than 15K or 18K miles on it, if that.

Places like Carmax, I dunno about, always been funky about those.  I say stick with dealerships and their used lots;  after all, those are the vehicles they accepted as trade-ins for other leases or purchases, so they've gone over them in detail.

[DGuller]

-How negotiable are prices these days?  With all of the information in the world available at everyone's fingertips it seems the old multi-hour haggling sessions would be a thing of the past.  Yea or nay?

I think you're going to find that that a lot of Internet sources are completely off (which ones depends on whether you're buying or selling).

[DGuller]

re: tricks, not too many to use when it comes to pre-owned;  since they're used, it's not like they have a whole lot of margin to tinker with, so negotiating room is negligible compared to buying a brand new car.

According to the car salesman I know, this is exactly backwards.  The new cars are a commodity, so there isn't a lot of leverage for the salesman against an informed buyer.  Everyone knows what the prices are.  On the other hand, every used car is unique, and that gives a lot of bullshit room for the salesman.

[garbon]

True Car has been marketing aggressively.

[CountDeMoney]

re: tricks, not too many to use when it comes to pre-owned;  since they're used, it's not like they have a whole lot of margin to tinker with, so negotiating room is negligible compared to buying a brand new car.

According to the car salesman I know, this is exactly backwards.  The new cars are a commodity, so there isn't a lot of leverage for the salesman against an informed buyer.  Everyone knows what the prices are.  On the other hand, every used car is unique, and that gives a lot of bullshit room for the salesman.

There's no real margin beyond the blue book for them, and it doesn't affect their commissions.  Selling a used car is beer money for them.

[DGuller]

There's no real margin beyond the blue book for them, and it doesn't affect their commissions.  Selling a used car is beer money for them.

I will admit that I have never sold used cars, but that goes against everything I know about the used car market.  First of all, the blue book gives a margin all on its own.  Apart from that, there are many different books out there, and the most favorable ones are going to be referenced on both the buying/trade-in side and the selling side.  Then there is the argument that the book chosen isn't quite fully applicable to the car in question, or that the book they chose is notorious for getting it wrong for the model in question.  Lastly, once you decide on buying the car, you can't really set up the bidding war between the dealers like you can for new cars.

[CountDeMoney]

I've known car salesmen, and walking over to the used lot makes them all depressed and shit.  Take that for what it's worth.

[sbr]

Can't you both be right?  No matter how much margin there may be to play with, the commission on the 2002 Fiesta isn't doing anything for anyone.

[CountDeMoney]

It's probably not heavy enough to run over someone's foot, either.

[The Brain]

Kick the tires.

[Darth Wagtaros]

What would the guys at Top Gear do?

[Darth Wagtaros]

From what I've read and heard from the few dealers I know, they can make some money on used cars, but there is less negotiating room. 

[Admiral Yi]

Listened to a very interesting NPR segment the other week, about a car dealership in Queens.

One of the claims of the story was that *every* new car is sold at a loss, which the dealership hopes to make back (and more) through the manufacturer sales quota bonus.

[Scipio]

This article is 12 years old, and still probably contains the best advice.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/10-steps-to-buying-a-used-car.html

Pay cash, if possible. Buy from someone you trust (private sales are best). Have your own mechanic check out the car. No extended warranty (that's right, I said no extended warranty) unless it extends the actual factory warranty (hint: there are almost no such things, except for manufacturer recertified used cars). If you finance, do not finance through the dealer; finance through your local credit union. Don't trust the tires; have them checked as well. Check the spare tire.

Research the vehicle and understand the major wear items at various mileage milestones. For example, 1998-2003 Lincoln Town cars, Mercury Grand Marquis, and Ford Crown Vics need a new transmission usually at about 160k; the TC needs new air shocks after about 125k (easily replaced at a total cost of about 600-800).