How Japan’s ‘BBC’ is rewriting its role in the Second World War

[Malthus]

The 12 year old thing is just gross, but the central problem is that it seems almost every one of these shows is creepily obsessed with "cutified" young girls - even the ones that have nothing whatever overtly sexual about them.

The cumulative effect, to some Westerners at least, is that there is something deeply wrong with the culture that produces this stuff. The occasional overt perving, like sexually aggressive 12 year olds, simply confirms an overall impression one gets from the rest of the 99.9% that doesn't contain overt perving.   

It's like this: assume you had a neighbour who was always very friendly with young kids. One day, you caught him fucking a young kid. You say 'I always thought that friendlieness was excessive and creepy, and indicated you were a pervert'. The neighbour complains 'it is unfair to conclude that. After all, 99.9% of the time, I wasn't fucking them'.

I think the problem with the analogy is it assumes that the anime industry is one big hive mind, "my neighbour".  When in fact there are thousands of neighbours, and only some of them are problematic.  The anime industry is incredibly fragmented, and there are a huge variety of different shows.  Sure, Strike Witches is filled to the brim with fanservice.  Just like there are movies and videos with adult or offensive content.  If you don't like Strike Witches (which is perfectly understandable), the solution is not to watch the show.  No reason to hate all anime in general, just like there is no reason to hate all movies just because porn movies exist. 

I also think there is some cultural difference at play.  Westeners are more strict about what kids can and cannot watch.  The Japanese are clearly more relaxed about it.  So they like to draw and watch cute girls.  I really don't see what's wrong with that.  It isn't like they are the only culture with an interest in female hotties.

There may be a huge variety of shows, but there is definitely an impression that many if not most of them feature underage girls - or women drawn to look like underage girls. The 'look' may have great variety to a connossuer, but to the non-expert they all more or less look the same - 'cute' underage young girls. What varies is how overtly they are sexualized - some of them are drawn to look like they are 13 years old but with massive breasts, and some are drawn to look 13 years old without massive breasts.

Sure, everyone likes female hotties - it just jars against our cultural prejudices when it is simply presumed that the hottest of hotties is an underage girl, and that this is the 'look' that women should aspire to to be attractive to (presumably) adult men.

It isn't the kids watching the stuff that Westerners are worried about - it is the adult men watching the stuff and getting off on it. Not because getting off on porn is worrying, but getting off on underage girls is.

Westerners find young girls "cute" too, but it is culturally supposed to be an unsexualized "cute". Sexualizing underage girls is frowned upon, though of course it occurs sometimes. What Westerners find creepy about anime is that it appears to be the default position.

[Josquius]

To be honest, a bunch of well reputed TV series in the US carry loads of "fanservice".

Fan service of hot 20-somethings: Win
Fan service of middle schoolers: Not win

[garbon]

To be honest, a bunch of well reputed TV series in the US carry loads of "fanservice".

Fan service of hot 20-somethings: Win
Fan service of middle schoolers: Not win

Well we also have a lot of shows about teens/ high school but yeah pretty much everyone in those are 20-somethings.

[Valmy]

To be honest, a bunch of well reputed TV series in the US carry loads of "fanservice". But it's usually quite non-pervy (if massively sexist).

Really?  US shows tend to have fanservice for both men and women by generally having a cast that consists entirely of gorgeous actors and actresses...and at least the actors are all in their 20s and 30s even if sometimes the characters are not.  American High Schools are full of people who look 29 for some reason.

[Monoriu]

There may be a huge variety of shows, but there is definitely an impression that many if not most of them feature underage girls - or women drawn to look like underage girls. The 'look' may have great variety to a connossuer, but to the non-expert they all more or less look the same - 'cute' underage young girls. What varies is how overtly they are sexualized - some of them are drawn to look like they are 13 years old but with massive breasts, and some are drawn to look 13 years old without massive breasts.

Sure, everyone likes female hotties - it just jars against our cultural prejudices when it is simply presumed that the hottest of hotties is an underage girl, and that this is the 'look' that women should aspire to to be attractive to (presumably) adult men.

It isn't the kids watching the stuff that Westerners are worried about - it is the adult men watching the stuff and getting off on it. Not because getting off on porn is worrying, but getting off on underage girls is.

Westerners find young girls "cute" too, but it is culturally supposed to be an unsexualized "cute". Sexualizing underage girls is frowned upon, though of course it occurs sometimes. What Westerners find creepy about anime is that it appears to be the default position.

I think we can all agree that we should protect real underage children.  As I see it the problem is to what extent this applies to fictional and animated characters.  I've lived in Canada for a couple of years to know that this is one big berserk button for westerners.  It is not so with Japan apparently.  You guys think it is a problem showing underage animated girls in skimpy clothing; they think it is not that serious a problem.  To be honest, as long as we are talking about animated characters and not real people, I'll just call it cultural difference.   

[Malthus]

Japan's attitude to young girls is fucked up.

I'm interested in how the other half of the population feels about it.  I can't seem to find much in the way of women's rights and issues in Japan:  which isn't too terribly surprising, I certainly don't expect to find any Groria Steinems or Betty Fliedans over there, but I've always been interested in how Japanese women feel about the sexual aspects of their culture, e.g., the young chicks, dance clubs, uniforms, tentacles, elaborate rope bondage, etc, and how incredibly over-the-top it is.

I don't know any Japanese women, but I can tell you how my wife feels about it - she saw a show about those "maid cafes" and her remark was that the Americans clearly did not nuke the Japanese enough. 

[Tonitrus]

What if the nukes are what caused maid cafes?  Like Godzilla. 

[Malthus]

I think we can all agree that we should protect real underage children.  As I see it the problem is to what extent this applies to fictional and animated characters.  I've lived in Canada for a couple of years to know that this is one big berserk button for westerners.  It is not so with Japan apparently.  You guys think it is a problem showing underage animated girls in skimpy clothing; they think it is not that serious a problem.  To be honest, as long as we are talking about animated characters and not real people, I'll just call it cultural difference.

Fair enough, I don't think it should be criminalized or anything - I just think it is sorta creepy, and shows the culture in an unflattering light. God knows enough Western popular entertainment does that as well. 

[Tonitrus]

I am sure the Chinese think that all Americans are represented by Jersey Shore and Duck Dynasty.

[Monoriu]

Japan's attitude to young girls is fucked up.

I'm interested in how the other half of the population feels about it.  I can't seem to find much in the way of women's rights and issues in Japan:  which isn't too terribly surprising, I certainly don't expect to find any Groria Steinems or Betty Fliedans over there, but I've always been interested in how Japanese women feel about the sexual aspects of their culture, e.g., the young chicks, dance clubs, uniforms, tentacles, elaborate rope bondage, etc, and how incredibly over-the-top it is.

I don't know any Japanese women, but I can tell you how my wife feels about it - she saw a show about those "maid cafes" and her remark was that the Americans clearly did not nuke the Japanese enough. 

I also find the maid cafes...odd.  But I don't find them offensive.  I find it even more weird that some people can accept strip bars featuring nude girls, but not maid cafes. 

[Malthus]

What if the nukes are what caused maid cafes?  Like Godzilla. 

"The Japanese - nuked too much, or not enough?" 'tis the question. 

[Malthus]

I am sure the Chinese think that all Americans are represented by Jersey Shore and Duck Dynasty.

Not so.

They assume Americans are like Honey Boo Boo's family. 

[Valmy]

I don't know any Japanese women, but I can tell you how my wife feels about it - she saw a show about those "maid cafes" and her remark was that the Americans clearly did not nuke the Japanese enough. 

I am not sure what maid cafes are but we have Hooters and pervy creepy  restaurants as well.  It is not that I have an issue with Japan having pervy stuff, I just do not have much interest in consuming it.

[Malthus]

I don't know any Japanese women, but I can tell you how my wife feels about it - she saw a show about those "maid cafes" and her remark was that the Americans clearly did not nuke the Japanese enough. 

I am not sure what maid cafes are but we have Hooters and pervy creepy  restaurants as well.  It is not that I have an issue with Japan having pervy stuff, I just do not have much interest in consuming it.

Well, to expand, the program wasn't just about maid cafes, but about sexuality in Japan in general (with maid cafes being the lead-in). Whatever its charms for men, its depiction of the situation was not enticing from a female POV (fairly or not, I have no idea). It left my wife thanking the powers she was not born a woman in Japan (though of course born a woman in Saudi Arabia or some third world hell-hole would be infinitely worse).

[celedhring]

To be honest, a bunch of well reputed TV series in the US carry loads of "fanservice". But it's usually quite non-pervy (if massively sexist).

Really?  US shows tend to have fanservice for both men and women by generally having a cast that consists entirely of gorgeous actors and actresses...and at least the actors are all in their 20s and 30s even if sometimes the characters are not.  American High Schools are full of people who look 29 for some reason.

I'm thinking more of shows like Game of Thrones, Galactica (that one's sooo blatant), heck, we were all tripping about the tits scene in True Detective the other day. You don't get much of that for women. Although I admit that media like Twilight and its brainchilds are paving the way of equal objectification of men.

And I love T&A as much as anybody else, I just wish equal opportunities of being sexist for both genders