Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Barrister]

I don't see independence listed there Tamas.

The 1992 Constitution is no longer in effect in Ukraine.

[Admiral Yi]

The 1992 Constitution is no longer in effect in Ukraine.

I was aware of that.

[crazy canuck]

I don't see independence listed there Tamas.

That is because you have fallen for the shell game, which is understandable because the constitutional history of the region is very chaotic.  But in short the 1992 constitution is that of an independent Republic.

[Agelastus]

I don't see independence listed there Tamas.

That is because you have fallen for the shell game, which is understandable because the constitutional history of the region is very chaotic.  But in short the 1992 constitution is that of an independent Republic.

Really? So the line in the constitution of 1992 that says that the Crimea is a part of the Ukraine doesn't exist?

Oh, you're probably right, but not in the short term way you've posited. A vote in favour of the 1992 Constitution is a slap in the face for the Ukraine given that they "dissolved" it in 1995; it's unlikely that those currently in power would accept it. But if they do reject it the Crimea can turn around and say "look, we've been reasonable, but now we'll have to join Russia for our own protection from those intransigent goons in Kiev."

[crazy canuck]

 

I was just pointing out to Yi that the 1992 constitution was in the form of an independent Republic.   Is that incorrect?

[derspiess]

Independent or autonomous?

[crazy canuck]

Independent or autonomous?

I am pretty sure I said Independent.

[derspiess]

I know.

[Agelastus]

I was just pointing out to Yi that the 1992 constitution was in the form of an independent Republic.   Is that incorrect?

As far as I can tell there's nothing inherently innacurate in this passage, extracted from Wikipedia.

On 26 February 1992, the Verkhovniy Sovet (the Crimean parliament) renamed the ASSR the Republic of Crimea and proclaimed self-government on 5 May 1992 (which was yet to be approved by a referendum held 2 August 1992) and passed the first Crimean constitution the same day. On 6 May 1992 the same parliament inserted a new sentence into this constitution that declared that Crimea was part of Ukraine.

On 19 May, Crimea agreed to remain part of Ukraine and annulled its proclamation of self-government but Crimean Communists forced the Ukrainian government to expand on the already extensive autonomous status of Crimea

I must admit my google-fu is not working very well at finding an exact English language text of the 1992 constitution; are you aware of any innaccuracies in the above?

I'm still looking; however, this article from 2000 on the 1990s constitutional issues between the Ukraine and Crimea is quite interesting.

http://www.iccrimea.org/scholarly/nbelitser.html

[crazy canuck]

Interesting article.

Its a bit of a mess but my google-fu skills indicate that it depends upon which 1992 constitution the referendum refers to.   I am pretty sure the Russians are not going to interpret the ambiguity in a manner which favours Ukraine.

On 5 May 1992 parliament declared Crimea independent[1] (which was yet to be approved by a referendum to be held 2 August 1992[4]) and passed the first Crimean constitution the same day.[4] On 6 May 1992 the same parliament inserted a new sentence into this constitution that declared that Crimea was part of Ukraine.[4] On 13 May 1992 the Verkhovna Rada (the Ukrainian parliament) annulled Crimea's independence declaration and gave its Crimean counterpart one week to do the same.[4] In June 1992 the parties reached a compromise and Crimea was given the status of "Autonomous Republic

[derspiess]

So autonomous, then

[crazy canuck]

So autonomous, then

Perhaps but the came later.  Months later.  It was first Independent. 

[Agelastus]

http://www.ucipr.kiev.ua/publications/happy-birthday-crimean-constitution-as-a-due-stage-in-forming-the-autonomy/lang/en

Speaking at a press conference on May 7, 1992, then chairman of the Crimean parliament Nikolay Bagrov stated, as if coming back to reality, frightened by the demonstration of "independence": "The Act of Declaration of State Sovereignty - and I am stressing that: state sovereignty, not independence - is not an attempt to violate the integrity of borders of Ukraine. The goal of the Act is to emphasize that the Crimea is not an ordinary region, but a republic that should be taken into account" (Krymskie Izvestia, May 9, 1992).

http://www.core-hamburg.de/documents/32_core_working_paper_6.pdf

Part 2 seems to give an excellent discussion of the 1990s constitutional struggles between Crimea and the Ukraine.

Out of interest, Tamas, does the Referendum specify the Crimean Constitution as of the 5th May 1992, 6th May 1992, or 25th September 1992? All would seem to be valid dates, and the Ukraine wouldn't like any of them (although the 5th May version would be the worst for the Ukraine - the other two definitely state that the Crimea is a part of the Ukraine, even if couched in conditional language.)

[crazy canuck]

Reading though that article I am coming to the view that the issue of who should govern the Crimea and how it should be governed has been a chaotic mess for decades.  Now wonder the USSR gave it up to Ukraine as an administrative district.  Who would want that mess - up until now...

[The Brain]

I'm kidding. I have other friends in Norway posting, not to mention the Swedes I'm
Friends with on there posting as well.

The fuck?

Don't be jelly Brainiac.

We sit together, katmai and I, until I notice and flee screaming.