Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Queequeg]

Regardless of what culture Lviv belonged to, there wasn't any choice as to where it would go regardless.  There wasn't such a thing as Soviet-occupied Poland in 1939.  Soviet Union annexed everything into one of the adjoining republics, so in the case of Lviv, it would've been either Ukraine, Belorussia, or Moldavia.  Obviously Belorussia or Moldavia would've made much less sense than Ukraine.

Just to be clear I wasn't arguing that the surrounding countryside was Polish, or that it should have been part of Poland.  Byzantine Rite Catholic Ukrainians are still better than full-on Poles. 

[Sheilbh]

I am more skeptical that the new found commitment to peace by the government is just a tactic to buy time to put more loyal troops into the West.

I dunno - Yanukovych has shown a willingness to negotiate, on multiple occasions.

It's just that he appears unwilling to make any concessions that would limit his own power as president.

Didn't he fire the people the opposition wanted fired, only for Putin to threaten to withdraw support so he appointed other pro-Russian politicians in their place? Russia was giving $2 billion of aid then, there was a glitch that disappeared once pro-Putin appointees were back in place.

This doesn't seem helpful (neither does Lviv declaring autonomy/independence):
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/719868

The one obvious thing about these video that just struck me is how the thugs are attacking the crowds while standing shoulder-to-shoulder with riot police.  I'm so jaded as to the nature of Berkut that something so obviously fucked up didn't register immediately.  That kind of throws any pretense of legitimacy of the action to "restore order" out the window. 

Aren't the titushki (?) basically being used like the baseej in Iran? That's the impression I'd got anyway.

I liked this piece:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2014/02/19/peter-pomerantsev/among-the-conspiracy-theorists/

Also on maps, apparently, this is cool. But I wouldn't know because it's in Russian, DGuller may like it:
https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/hubs2013.hakjhj39/page.html?secure=1#6/48.763/29.268

Apparently hours after empowering the use of force Yanukovych fired the army chief. Seems like that was probably because he was refusing to use force. Western leaders apparently still can't get hold of Yanukovych.

[Razgovory]

This doesn't seem helpful (neither does Lviv declaring autonomy/independence):
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/719868

This one can be safely ignored.  He's part of the kook party that wants to invade Alaska and other nonsense.  They are probably on Putin's payroll and are around to make him look more reasonable.  Mostly they serve as a distraction.

[Grinning_Colossus]

Member of the Liberal Democratic Party, Leonid Slutsky. Does everyone in that party have lawyers for fathers?

[Grinning_Colossus]

The truce has broken down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620

Anti-government protesters are again clashing with police in Kiev, despite a truce agreed between the Ukrainian president and opposition leaders.

Some live rounds have been fired but it is not clear by whom. Protesters are throwing petrol bombs, while police are using water cannon.

Three European Union foreign ministers are in Kiev for talks before an EU meeting to discuss possible sanctions.

The health ministry says the death toll in protests this week has risen to 28.

[Sheilbh]

They're loading goggles and fire extinguishers into the square. Tear gas?

[Tamas]

EU foreign ministers have supposedly left Kiev without negotiating with Yanukovich, due to serious shit going down.

Allegedly the big right-wing football hooligan group broke the cease fire, and there was shooting between protesters and police in a hotel building.

Polish Foreign Minister I think is still there and is twittering:
https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/436422009111986176/photo/1

[Tamas]

I am a bit worried about this. I understand the EU and the USA cannot let Putin just vassalise Ukraine without at least giving something in return, but I do no think that yielding and letting Ukraine come under more direct EU influence is a viable option for Putin. The potential point of maximum escalation is like way up there.

[Tamas]

EU ministers have not left, just relocated the place of the meeting.

A BBC correspondent says there is no hope for a truce now, gunshots are heard from "from Instiskaya street to Maidan Square"

[CountDeMoney]

I understand the EU and the USA cannot let Putin just vassalise Ukraine without at least giving something in return,

Why not, they sold Georgia out.

[Queequeg]

Georgia was shelling a city in a bid to ethnically cleanse two minorities. This is a bit different.

[Syt]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2014/feb/20/ukraine-crisis-new-clashes-strain-truce-live-updates

The Guardian's Ian Traynor in Kiev witnessed four police snipers, two of whom fired live rounds at protesters.

"I saw marksmen firing from automatic weapons with telescopic sights," Ian said in a telephone update. He also reported seeing the bodies of 12 named protesters who had been bought to a makeshift morgue in the lobby of his hotel. All had been shot, according to medics.

The guardian alone can confirm 21 dead, but it is likely to be much higher. I counted 12 corpses in the makeshift morgue, but a doctor said there were 15 here. My colleague Harriet Salem counted nine bodies in a different part of town.

Russian prime minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Thursday that President Yanukovych should not be a "doormat", in what seemed the latest words from Moscow urging the Ukrainian authorities to crack down.

"We need partners who are in good shape and for the authorities that work in Ukraine to be legitimate and effective, so that people don't wipe their feet on them like a doormat," said Medvedev in televised remarks.

In the Olympic village in Sochi, Ukrainian athletes added black armbands to the Ukrainian flags hanging from their balconies, a day after the IOC told them they were not allowed to wear the armbands in competition.

A Ukrainian skier, Bogdana Matsotka, and her coach have pulled out of the games in protest at the use of force in Kiev.

The head of the Crimean parliament, Vladimir Konstantinov, told Interfax that if the situation continues to deteriorate, there is a possibility of the region separating from Ukraine. Crimea, with its largely ethnic-Russian population, is staunchly pro-Moscow.

"It's possible, if the country collapses" said Konstantinov, on the possibility of secession. "Everything is heading in that direction."

[Tamas]

The text is in Hungarian, but a good collection of videos from today, showing snipers, their victims, policemen using AK47s, and protesters firing from a building (click on the blue button):
http://444.hu/2014/02/20/elfogott-rendorok-mesterloveszek-es-haldoklok-videok-a-veres-kijevi-csutortokrol/

[Syt]

Most common user comments on Austrian news sites: The whole thing is instigates by the EU who want to tie the Ukraine and its cheap labor to themselves. Also, the way media are cheering for violent and murderous protestors (just like in Syria!!) is disgusting.

I think I want to move to Arkansas or West Virginia to be surrounded by a different kind of crazy for a while.

Though to be fair, no one but the media seem to talk about this. It's not something that comes up in everyday conversation.

[Queequeg]

Wait, so those commenters are Austrians arguing the EU is at fault here?!?