Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Valmy]

Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

[Queequeg]

having their own country?

This is a gross oversimplification.  Do ethnic Russians in Ukraine have their own country?

[derspiess]

62% ain't bad.

62% is about the same as English to Frisian. Here's a short film in Frisian to give you an idea of how close that is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-5knZRuwNI

If I lived adjacent to Frisia all my life I'd imagine I would be able to pick up on a fair amount of that.  As it stands, I got nothing as Youtube is blocked here at work and my work-around doesn't always do the trick   Will try it at home.

[Barrister]

Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

Baltics have done okay for themselves.

[Malthus]

How about 'Russia is currently a shithole run by Putin's mafia, and these kids would have a better future - and more chances to read Gogol, etc. - if their country inclines towards the West'?

Ukraine's also a shithole.

Certainly ... and people are blaming it, rightly or wrongly, on the fact that it was "soviet-ized" under Russian domination for decades and is currently is being run by a guy who is seen as one of Putin's cronies.

In short, that close relations with Russia  (i.e., domination)  have, over the last hundred years or so, made the country into a shithole and are keeping the country as a shithole.  Understandably, they believe, rightly or wrongly, that a different course - more inclined towards Europe than Russia - would perhaps lead them to having a country that is less of a shithole.

[DGuller]

If I lived adjacent to Frisia all my life I'd imagine I would be able to pick up on a fair amount of that.  As it stands, I got nothing as Youtube is blocked here at work and my work-around doesn't always do the trick   Will try it at home.

I still don't your line of argument here.  Just because people get to learn two disparate languages due to living in a bilingual environment doesn't in any way connect these two languages.  People are capable of understanding multiple languages at the same time.

[DGuller]

Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

Baltics have done okay for themselves.

Baltics are a special case.  Baltics have throughout the history of USSR had far more effective autonomy than any other part, since they were so openly rebellious.  Therefore they started from a higher point, spent the least amount of time under Soviet rule, and had the minimum interference from the Soviet Union possible.

[Sheilbh]

Kind of?  I think the entire Balkans are an absurdity.  We're supporting nations the size of Columbus, Ohio.  Again; anti-Nationalist.

Why does it matter if a country's small? I mean actually I think small countries can be unusually successful - none of the Scandi or Low countries are terribly large and they tend to do well on all sorts of measures.

I know Americans have this in the bone dislike of separatism, but really what's the problem? I mean forcing Serbs and Bosniacs to live together isn't working, so it certainly wouldn't on a larger scale.

Ukraine's also a shithole.

Because Russia. Poland and the Baltics weren't that much richer than Ukrain in 1990 (in fact Poland was at the same level) they're now significantly richer and less shit-holey because they chose Europe.

[Razgovory]

Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

Baltics have done okay for themselves.

Baltics are a special case.  Baltics have throughout the history of USSR had far more effective autonomy than any other part, since they were so openly rebellious.  Therefore they started from a higher point, spent the least amount of time under Soviet rule, and had the minimum interference from the Soviet Union possible.

They were also part of the Soviet Union for the least amount of time, and were some of the most developed parts of the of the old Russian empire.  I don't think it's unreasonable to look west and see the cities of Europe and want to choose living like that rather then looking east and wanting to be like Belarus or Russia.

[Queequeg]

Certainly ... and people are blaming it, rightly or wrongly, on the fact that it was "soviet-ized" under Russian domination for decades and is currently is being run by a guy who is seen as one of Putin's cronies.

In short, that close relations with Russia  (i.e., domination)  have, over the last hundred years or so, made the country into a shithole and are keeping the country as a shithole.  Understandably, they believe, rightly or wrongly, that a different course - more inclined towards Europe than Russia - would perhaps lead them to having a country that is less of a shithole.

I understand why people would think this, but the "ethnic Russian" regions of Ukraine are the wealthiest.  The regions ruled by Poland until 1939 are dirt poor. 

[Malthus]

I understand why people would think this, but the "ethnic Russian" regions of Ukraine are the wealthiest.  The regions ruled by Poland until 1939 are dirt poor.

If you are of the opinion that being run by the Soviets did Ukraine good overall rather than harm, I think you are going to be awfully lonely in that position. 

[Queequeg]

Why does it matter if a country's small? I mean actually I think small countries can be unusually successful - none of the Scandi or Low countries are terribly large and they tend to do well on all sorts of measures.

I know Americans have this in the bone dislike of separatism, but really what's the problem? I mean forcing Serbs and Bosniacs to live together isn't working, so it certainly wouldn't on a larger scale.

When Yugoslavia worked it worked a lot better than the current situation.  I think it's an unfortunate reality that in times of political and economic collapse people fall back on their most basic identities, and that the collapse of Yugoslavia had a lot more to do with Socialism being terrible than the idea of Yugoslavia being bad. 

[Queequeg]

If you are of the opinion that being run by the Soviets did Ukraine good overall rather than harm, I think you are going to be awfully lonely in that position. 

That's not what I'm saying, but blaming Moscow for all of Ukraine's ills doesn't have anything to do with facts or evidence and everything to do with nationalism. 

[Valmy]

That's not what I'm saying, but blaming Moscow for all of Ukraine's ills doesn't have anything to do with facts or evidence and everything to do with nationalism. 

Facts?  You are the guy who blamed 19 years of rule by Poland. 

[Queequeg]

That's not what I'm saying, but blaming Moscow for all of Ukraine's ills doesn't have anything to do with facts or evidence and everything to do with nationalism. 

Facts?  You are the guy who blamed 19 years of rule by Poland.

How much Ukrainian history do you know?