Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Tamas]

WTF are you debating? At least 2/3rd of Eastern Europe is varying degree of anti-Semite

[Razgovory]

It's the difference between Swiss German and German.

I don't know the difference between Swiss German and German, as I speak neither, but I do know the difference between Russian and Ukrainian.  Those languages are not that close to each other;  I can understand Russian perfectly, but I can understand Ukrainian about as well as I can understand Polish.  Which is to say very poorly.

But you don't live close to Ukraine or Poland.  If you did, I'd imagine you'd be able to understand it better.  FWIW, for an outsider like me Ukrainian and Russian seem to have a lot of similarities.

Dguller was lived in Ukraine in a city close to Polish border.

For how long?

What comes to mind is how difficult it is for me to understand Portuguese very well, even though it has a decent bit in common with Spanish.  Yet my wife & most other Argies I know can understand nearly all of it, no doubt due to living (or having lived for a good while) so close to Brazil.

My files on him aren't complete but I believe he left Lvov as a teenager when his family moved to Brooklyn.

[Sheilbh]

62% ain't bad.

62% is about the same as English to Frisian. Here's a short film in Frisian to give you an idea of how close that is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-5knZRuwNI

[Malthus]

I do not want to paint all Ukrainian nationalists as Anti-Semites. 

The "Jew-Muscovite" thing was from this Foreign Affairs article I read a few days ago;
Ukraine's Big Three

The Svoboda Party is a frigtening, but fringe, group of xenophobic ultra-nationalists. As your own article points out, they are not typical of the protestors, but rather its participation  "... reflects its own opportunism more than the views of most of the protesters".

To paint Ukranian Nationalists with their colours is most unfair, like unto claiming everyone who is a French Patriot is a follower of Le Pen.

[Valmy]

Well to be fair the FN is gaining in popularity these days, though it is also a gentler and wimpier version of the FN.

[Sheilbh]

Yep. Here's a map of the situation now:


One interesting feature - which happened in Egypt too - is the mobilisation of football club ultras to protect protesters. I think there's a decent book to be written on this which I'd read.

[Queequeg]

PSellus, who never met a minority group he didn't lust over, hates Ukrainians.  Figures.

And Ukrainian schoolkids should be reading Shevchenko. :contract:L

Not really.  You really think I could dislike Galicia and Cossacks?  Kiev? 

I just think Ukrainian nationalism is generally not positive for a bunch of reasons. Half of Ukraine has a way closer attachment to Moscow than Lviv or other Western cities. There's no sensible argument that Chernigov, Sebastopol, Donetsk and Cherson belong to some kind of real, existing Ukraine that has been a thing opposed to Moscow for however long.  The Crimea went from Tatar to Russian, and the various Hetmanates were populated as much by Russians as anyone.  Trying to force a different identity on people who have been Russian speaking forever is absurd.  Up until 1870, the vast majority of the Eastern Slavic population would have called themselves "Orthodox" or "Greek Catholic" or "from Ryazan".

Also, Gogol is the best Ukrainian writer.  He was from Sorochyntsi and a lot of his early stories have a lot of folk-influence.  I think it's really sad that some kids are going to have to read Ukrainian translations of Bulgakov and Gogol, both of whom were by today's standards Ukrainians.  Or, you know.  Pushkin.  Tolstoy. 

[Sheilbh]

On the other hand Ukrainian nationalists want closer relations with the EU. A look around the rest of Eastern and Central Europe suggests that's generally a positive thing regardless of the history or literary element.

Anyway it's nowhere near as ridiculous or sad as the break-up of Serbo-Croat into Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian etc.

[Queequeg]

I don't think my thinking here is inconsistent.  I'm not Lettow.  I don't support separatist movements, generally speaking.  I'm generally anti-nationalist.  There's a big difference between supporting, say, Catalan or Welsh or Kurdish culture and believing that these should become nation states that purposefully exclude or assimilate the remainder-I've never been anything but hostile to ETA or the SNP for that reason. 

[Queequeg]

On the other hand Ukrainian nationalists want closer relations with the EU. A look around the rest of Eastern and Central Europe suggests that's generally a positive thing regardless of the history or literary element.

This is why I'm conflicted and kind of glad I'm not Ukrainian.  I think there's a chance the risk of the country breaking and hostility from Moscow is worth the closer relationship with the EU, though in my Lettow-esque fantasy world Russia and Ukraine are both full members of the EU where national boundaries are meaningless. 

[Sheilbh]

Surely the difference is that those are separatist movements.

Ukraine is already a country. So your position seems a bit like saying to Croatia and Bosnia that they should get back into Yugoslavia, they're not that different than the Serbs after all.

[Queequeg]

Anyway it's nowhere near as ridiculous or sad as the break-up of Serbo-Croat into Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian etc.

Macedonian is the lulziest.  Their textbook was in faux-Greek font.  It was hilarious. 

[Malthus]

PSellus, who never met a minority group he didn't lust over, hates Ukrainians.  Figures.

And Ukrainian schoolkids should be reading Shevchenko. :contract:L

Not really.  You really think I could dislike Galicia and Cossacks?  Kiev? 

I just think Ukrainian nationalism is generally not positive for a bunch of reasons. Half of Ukraine has a way closer attachment to Moscow than Lviv or other Western cities. There's no sensible argument that Chernigov, Sebastopol, Donetsk and Cherson belong to some kind of real, existing Ukraine that has been a thing opposed to Moscow for however long.  The Crimea went from Tatar to Russian, and the various Hetmanates were populated as much by Russians as anyone.  Trying to force a different identity on people who have been Russian speaking forever is absurd.  Up until 1870, the vast majority of the Eastern Slavic population would have called themselves "Orthodox" or "Greek Catholic" or "from Ryazan".

Also, Gogol is the best Ukrainian writer.  He was from Sorochyntsi and a lot of his early stories have a lot of folk-influence.  I think it's really sad that some kids are going to have to read Ukrainian translations of Bulgakov and Gogol, both of whom were by today's standards Ukrainians.  Or, you know.  Pushkin.  Tolstoy.

Your position is that more great works of literature were written in Russian, so kids should learn it rather than Ukranian, and give up on having their own country? 

How about 'Russia is currently a shithole run by Putin's mafia, and these kids would have a better future - and more chances to read Gogol, etc. - if their country inclines towards the West'?

[Queequeg]

Surely the difference is that those are separatist movements.

Ukraine is already a country. So your position seems a bit like saying to Croatia and Bosnia that they should get back into Yugoslavia, they're not that different than the Serbs after all.

Kind of?  I think the entire Balkans are an absurdity.  We're supporting nations the size of Columbus, Ohio.  Again; anti-Nationalist. 

[Queequeg]

How about 'Russia is currently a shithole run by Putin's mafia, and these kids would have a better future - and more chances to read Gogol, etc. - if their country inclines towards the West'?

Ukraine's also a shithole.