Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Queequeg]

Ukrainian and Russian have been constructed as separate languages, but they're also on a linguistic continuum. It seems possible that  those people in central and eastern Ukraine who speak "a mix of Russian and Ukrainian" are actually speaking the same language that their ancestors spoke for centuries -- a dialect somewhere in the transitional zone between the two.


Edit: I can continue to provide unsupported linguistic speculation all day.

Exactly.  "Ukrainian" is based largely on the language of the lands formerly occupied by the Austro-Hungarians and Poles.  Alternatively, Kiev has been ruled by Moscow from the time of Tsar Aleksei.  It's not some kind of hideous, awful plot by the Jew-Muscovites that people in Kiev spoke Russian almost exclusively until independence. 

[Queequeg]

How nice of Psellus to come along and tell me my ethnicity doesn't exist.

[Malthus]

The problem is that, whoever wrote these points, they are apparently not true according to people who actually speak the languages.

Do your examples live in Ukraine?  I've only heard from DG, and he hasn't lived all his life there.

Family relations.

My wife's mother grew up in Ukraine. My wife, who speaks fluent Ukranian, lived there for a year while working on an economic development project. They have relations who live there all the time, and who visit their Canadian relatives. My brother in law's wife grew up in Ukraine, for example, and moved to Canada as an adult.

62% ain't bad.

No-one denies that the two languages are related. The point here is that Ukrainian is closer to Polish than Russian, and no-one claims that Polish and Russian are basically the same languages, or that Polish and Ukranian are basically the same languages.

The similarities between Ukranian and Russian have been exaggerated by Russians, particularly during the Soviet Union days, for reasons of empire-building.

[Malthus]

Exactly.  "Ukrainian" is based largely on the language of the lands formerly occupied by the Austro-Hungarians and Poles.  Alternatively, Kiev has been ruled by Moscow from the time of Tsar Aleksei.  It's not some kind of hideous, awful plot by the Jew-Muscovites that people in Kiev spoke Russian almost exclusively until independence.

Wut? 

[DGuller]

Do your examples live in Ukraine?  I've only heard from DG, and he hasn't lived all his life there.

The Ukrainian language didn't change since I left.

[derspiess]

No-one denies that the two languages are related. The point here is that Ukrainian is closer to Polish than Russian, and no-one claims that Polish and Russian are basically the same languages, or that Polish and Ukranian are basically the same languages.

I'm not really making that claim. I'm merely speculating that linguistic similarities plus geographical proximity would make the languages fairly mutually intelligible for people who live there. 

Plus, from what I understand many native Ukrainians with Ukrainian as their primary language speak Russian as a second language.

[Valmy]

Jew-Muscovites

Wait I thought the Jews lived in the Ukraine.

[DGuller]

I'm not really making that claim. I'm merely speculating that linguistic similarities plus geographical proximity would make the languages fairly mutually intelligible for people who live there. 

The languages are not mutually intelligible just on the basis of knowing another language.  If Ukrainians and Russians can communicate, it's because they are bilingual.

Plus, from what I understand many native Ukrainians with Ukrainian as their primary language speak Russian as a second language.

So what, most Scandinavians can speak very good English.

[alfred russel]

The Ukrainian language didn't change since I left.

I'm bet they have innovated some new insults for jews and gays.

[Barrister]

Ukrainian and Russian have been constructed as separate languages, but they're also on a linguistic continuum. It seems possible that  those people in central and eastern Ukraine who speak "a mix of Russian and Ukrainian" are actually speaking the same language that their ancestors spoke for centuries -- a dialect somewhere in the transitional zone between the two.


Edit: I can continue to provide unsupported linguistic speculation all day.

Exactly.  "Ukrainian" is based largely on the language of the lands formerly occupied by the Austro-Hungarians and Poles.  Alternatively, Kiev has been ruled by Moscow from the time of Tsar Aleksei.  It's not some kind of hideous, awful plot by the Jew-Muscovites that people in Kiev spoke Russian almost exclusively until independence.

Um, what?

I'll ignore the "Jew-Muscovites" part, but Kiev residents spoke primarily Russian due to very specific Soviet (and before that Czarist) policy of russification.  Historically the plurality of Kiev's residents spoke Ukrainian (though things were obviously quite fluid, with numerous russian, polish, german and yiddish speakers).

[alfred russel]

So what, most Scandinavians can speak very good English.

Probably in part due to the common germanic root.

[Valmy]

So what, most Scandinavians can speak very good English.

Probably in part due to the common germanic root.

Maybe.  But English has very little grammatically in common with other Germanic languages and our vocabulary is all shot to hell. 

[derspiess]

The languages are not mutually intelligible just on the basis of knowing another language.  If Ukrainians and Russians can communicate, it's because they are bilingual.

Which I'd guess is helped along by a certain degree of mutual intelligibility.

So what, most Scandinavians can speak very good English.

Yeah, English is pretty easy for them to learn.  I'd have to thing that's partly because there are a lot of similarities between Germanic languages.

[Malthus]

No-one denies that the two languages are related. The point here is that Ukrainian is closer to Polish than Russian, and no-one claims that Polish and Russian are basically the same languages, or that Polish and Ukranian are basically the same languages.

I'm not really making that claim. I'm merely speculating that linguistic similarities plus geographical proximity would make the languages fairly mutually intelligible for people who live there. 

Plus, from what I understand many native Ukrainians with Ukrainian as their primary language speak Russian as a second language.

Why can't most English people speak French? After all, France is only just across the Channel, and French has had a great deal of influence on the development of English as a language. Also, lots of English people learn French as a second language.

[Ed Anger]

Bonjour, you cheese eating surrender monkeys.