Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Admiral Yi]

It's Eastern Europe.  There's not really a lack of hotties within a certain age group.

I haven't seen many hotties occupying government buildings or waving separatist flags.

[Queequeg]

Both of which were silly and motivated primarily by ethnic prejudice.

And Kiev wasn't?

You have the logic switched.  Kiev was switched to Kyiv as a fuck-you to Russian speakers.  It has always been Kiev in English and we aren't even going to change our pronunciation.

This is not true.  It has no always been Kiev in English.  It only became so after the Russians took over.   Earliest spelling of Kyiv is "Kiou".

In the 17th Century from the Poles.

16th century English map.  Why should we use the 18th century Russian version?

How many times do I have to say 17th Century?  Kiou is Polish.  Kiev is very close to the original spelling from all the way back to Old East Slavic.  And there's no practical difference in English pronunciation.  None.  It's not Lvov-Lviv.  No difference! 

[Queequeg]

The point was how recent events would play into the Russian propaganda effort. Looking at RT is instructive in that regard.

If we are discussing something other than how it will be used by the Russian propaganda effort, then what RT says on the matter is less relevant; but that was the subject before it became about giving spellus a hard time.

Russia has what it needs as an excuse to push.  It is probably going to push.  AFAIAC this is all kabuki at this point.  The war is going to start. 

[Ed Anger]

Both of which were silly and motivated primarily by ethnic prejudice.

And Kiev wasn't?

You have the logic switched.  Kiev was switched to Kyiv as a fuck-you to Russian speakers.  It has always been Kiev in English and we aren't even going to change our pronunciation.

This is not true.  It has no always been Kiev in English.  It only became so after the Russians took over.   Earliest spelling of Kyiv is "Kiou".

In the 17th Century from the Poles.

16th century English map.  Why should we use the 18th century Russian version?

How many times do I have to say 17th Century?  Kiou is Polish.  Kiev is very close to the original spelling from all the way back to Old East Slavic.  And there's no practical difference in English pronunciation.  None.  It's not Lvov-Lviv.  No difference!

You gonna ball your fists and punch your pillows next?

[Valmy]

So are Ukrainian Nationalists the dumbest people in the world?

Almost as stupid as those Poles who attacked that radio station in 1939.  What were they thinking?

[Syt]

http://www.der-postillon.com/2014/04/osgiliath-krise-minas-tirith-verscharft.html

(In German - what follows is my crappy translation)

Osgiliath Crisis: Minas Tirith steps up sanctions against Mordor

Minas Tirith (dpo) - Against the background of the unrest in Osgiliath the Steward of Gondor announced additional sanctions against Mordor on Wednesday. The sanctions target primarily the trade with lava and sulfuric rocks, but they might be extended to peat facial masks which are popular in Mordor. Sanctions against Sauron's inner circle are unfortunately impossible, because Mordor's ruler has no friends.

Meanwhile, Sauron stressed again to ork journalists at Barad-Dûr that his government is not involved with the Nazgûl riding winged creatures in the crisis region on River Anduin. Rather, these would be local Self Defense Nazgûl.

Gondor and its allies hope that the sanctions will help stabilize the situation in Osgiliath and move Mordor to withdraw its troops from the borders. Said a speaker of the court of Minas Tirith, "When two major powers with complex interests are facing each other in a confusing crisis are, the it's never easy to see clearly and make the right decisions. Fortunately, we're in Middle Earth, and that makes deciding who's good and who's evil pretty obvious."

Mordor reacted to the new measures of the West with irritation. "We're still interested in a deescalation of the situation," stressed Mordor's press secretary, Mouth of Sauron, during a press conference at the Morannon. At the same time he stressed that according to a recent poll the majority of orks living in East Osgiliath would prefer the city was a part of Mordor.

Hundreds of Gondorian soldiers, as well as two hobbits and a skinny creature who were not supposed to be in Osgiliath, keep fighting against annexation. There has been no comment from Rohan so far, but Denethor has been quoted that this would be typcial for those horse guys.

[Razgovory]

How many times do I have to say 17th Century?  Kiou is Polish.  Kiev is very close to the original spelling from all the way back to Old East Slavic.  And there's no practical difference in English pronunciation.  None.  It's not Lvov-Lviv.  No difference!

I have no idea how many times you have to say 17th century, since I refer to a document that predates the 17th century.  The Polish name was used because it was part of Poland.  We switched over to the Russian word because it was conquered by Russia.  This contradicts your statements that it had always been spelled "Kiev".  You sound like the Russian nationalists who demand it be pronounced Kiev and that Ukrainians aren't really a people.

[Viking]

Who were these people who were burned?

Trans-Dniestrians.

All of a sudden I lost all sympathy.

[The Brain]

Who were these people who were burned?

Trans-Dniestrians.

All of a sudden I lost all sympathy.

The ethnicities are getting more and more obscure.

[Razgovory]

So are Ukrainian Nationalists the dumbest people in the world?

No, that'd be you, for believing anything you read in RT.

I posted what RT was spinning the event as which is frankly all that matters.

Why is that all that matters?

The point was how recent events would play into the Russian propaganda effort. Looking at RT is instructive in that regard.

If we are discussing something other than how it will be used by the Russian propaganda effort, then what RT says on the matter is less relevant; but that was the subject before it became about giving spellus a hard time.

I wasn't aware that was the point.  I thought we were discussing the situation in Ukraine on it's own merits not simply how it plays in Russian external propaganda.  We have a good reason for giving Spellus a bad time here.  He's a good guy, and I like him a lot, but he wrong on this.  Not only is he wrong he's starting to sound like the Russian nationalists in regard to Ukraine.

[The Brain]

Can you blame him? He's following 800 Russian nationalists on Twitter.

[Ed Anger]

I'm following 99 luft balloons.

[Queequeg]

I wasn't aware that was the point.  I thought we were discussing the situation in Ukraine on it's own merits not simply how it plays in Russian external propaganda.  We have a good reason for giving Spellus a bad time here.  He's a good guy, and I like him a lot, but he wrong on this.  Not only is he wrong he's starting to sound like the Russian nationalists in regard to Ukraine.

I feel like I should clarify my position cause people are trying to fill it in for me.

1) Ukraine in 1991 was an unlikely, to some extent unnatural entity. 
2) Since 1991 this has become a whole lot worse.  Russia has the benefit of natural resources, but there was also always been a few competent Russian potentates and a few competent corporations (thought to be fair half of those are Sukhoi).  Ukrainian oligarchs are the scum of the earth.  They've completely despoiled the country. 
3) The political situation wasn't improved by the Orange Revolution.  It is probably not going to improve now. 
4) Giving massive amounts of military and economic aid to Ukraine would be throwing good money after bad without massive political and economic reforms, which would likely result in the kind of riots we are seeing in the South and East right now anyway.  This was going to happen.  Putin is expediting what was already nigh-on inevitable. 
5) Strengthening NATO doesn't have to mean expanding it to include Ukraine as we now understand it.  I don't think American and German boys should die so that Mariupol and Donetsk are ruled by a Kiev they are increasingly alienated from.  Instead we focus on inoculating Baltic Russian populations against this kind of insanity and build up relations with the Poles. 
6) I think giving in to the urge to give more and more support to Ukraine is playing in to Moscow's interest.  They want a conflict.  They want it to look like they are fighting the CIA.  We're playing our role in a play that is, ultimately, almost entirely about domestic Russian politics.   

[DGuller]

There is nothing domestic about this situation.  Well, other than the fact that an average Russian really likes feeling like he's part of the empire that conquers other countries, even if he's feeling that patriotism in Lubyanka's basement waiting in line for a shot to the back of his head.

[Queequeg]

fact that an average Russian really likes feeling like he's part of the empire that conquers other countries,

Exactly. 

Putin almost lost control of Russia two years ago.  He's building his Neo-Slavophile house on the sand.