Ukraine's European Revolution?

[celedhring]

Probably not to give Putin PR fodder on the verge of today's summit. The actual arms would do very little, as you say. Hell, I'm not sure they could arrive in time before this is solved one way or the other, nor there is a reliable military structure in place to give them to.

[DGuller]

I'm not actually sure why we wouldn't give them arms.

Why in the world would we want to arm the Russians?

[Razgovory]

I imagine the promise of low interest loans would help more then guns.

[alfred russel]

I imagine the promise of low interest loans would help more then guns.

They would probably turn the funds over to the Russians, and then default on the debt.

[Razgovory]

I imagine the promise of low interest loans would help more then guns.

They would probably turn the funds over to the Russians, and then default on the debt.

Hard to turn over a promise for loans.

[derspiess]

I can't read back because work has blocked this thread as "adult content", but is anyone following the Vice reports from the Ukraine? Pretty intense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTdkY8tl2b0

I'm not up to date on them, but they've been fascinating.  Like the one where they found some Chetniks 'helping out' in Crimea and another where the dude (forget his name) was able to sign up for the self defense force but got all sorts of confusing instructions as to where to report.

[derspiess]

I'm not actually sure why we wouldn't give them arms.

At the moment, it seems like they are turning them over to the Russians upon request.

We could: make them sign a hand receipt

[alfred russel]

Hard to turn over a promise for loans.

How do you think a promise will help them if we don't follow through and give them the money?

[celedhring]

Hard to turn over a promise for loans.

How do you think a promise will help them if we don't follow through and give them the money?

Interest rates from other loan sources would likely fall if such a promise was in place.

[Razgovory]

Hard to turn over a promise for loans.

How do you think a promise will help them if we don't follow through and give them the money?

Well you give the loan after the crisis.  A major problem with Ukraine is that it's essentially bankrupt.  The economy is going to collapse if the Russian come or not.  If we can offer loans to prop them up, that would help prevent the disintegration of the country.

[alfred russel]

Interest rates from other loan sources would likely fall if such a promise was in place.

My point is they are basically bankrupt and need money asap. If we offer them money, they are going to take it.

[Iormlund]

Well you give the loan after the crisis.  A major problem with Ukraine is that it's essentially bankrupt.  The economy is going to collapse if the Russian come or not.  If we can offer loans to prop them up, that would help prevent the disintegration of the country.

Do we really want to prevent the disintegration of the country?

I wouldn't be surprised if it might end up being better for the Westies to get rid of Russophile areas. The remaining population would be much more amenable to EU influence, and the need to kill the Soviet-era industrial and mining dinosaurs in the Donbass would disappear.

[derspiess]

I wouldn't be surprised if it might end up being better for the Westies to get rid of Russophile areas. The remaining population would be much more amenable to EU influence, and the need to kill the Soviet-era industrial and mining dinosaurs in the Donbass would disappear.

That's what I've been saying.  Sure, they'll lose the more industrialized part of the country, but that can be replaced with the help of some foreign investment.

[Berkut]

Ukraine's leaders were in Washington asking for weapons and were turned down. Got some nice blankets, beads and trinkets as parting gifts though. I wonder what the rationale is for not giving arms? Thinking that will incite Russia? As if Putin isn't already on the road to take over. The additional arms wouldn't likely help anyway. But it seems to further go against the deal the US, UK and what ever other Euro nations made to defend Ukraine if they gave up parts of their military. I'm not arguing that NATO should fight a war in Ukraine. Just pointing out the possible reneging on a defense treaty. I wonder what the situation will be when Putin moves against the Baltic states, which are NATO members, using similar tactics as in Ukraine and Crimea? Could it be the downfall of the NATO treaty if the nations aren't able or willing to act?

We are not reneging on a defense treaty. We never signed any defense treaty with the Ukraine.

The Ukraine is not a member of NATO, and the US has no more responsibility to defend the Ukraine than Canada does.

[Barrister]

Well you give the loan after the crisis.  A major problem with Ukraine is that it's essentially bankrupt.  The economy is going to collapse if the Russian come or not.  If we can offer loans to prop them up, that would help prevent the disintegration of the country.

Do we really want to prevent the disintegration of the country?

I wouldn't be surprised if it might end up being better for the Westies to get rid of Russophile areas. The remaining population would be much more amenable to EU influence, and the need to kill the Soviet-era industrial and mining dinosaurs in the Donbass would disappear.

You guys aren't paying attention to what Putin is saying.

There's no demand to annex eastern Ukraine.  Instead he's been pushing to "federalize" it - decentralize powers.  Which sounds great to those of us in Canada or the US, but what that means is to devolve power to local warlords beholden to Russia.  It'll make the country poor and ungovernable, and never suitable to join the West in any meaningful way.