Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Razgovory]

This isn't going to be much a war.

That's a positive; people and soldiers on both sides seem to be showing remarkable restraint in not shooting each other. Maybe if this had happened in some other European countries or the US, they'd have been a far higher death toll. I think so far only 3-4 have been killed in the Crimea and here.

Of course the restraint might be because of an intense fear of what will happen if 'the shooting' really starts, folk memories and so forth.

This isn't restraint, it's operational failure.  They should have armed some of the soldiers with rubber bullets and gas grenades.  They also failed to weed out the disloyal elements of their military.

[mongers]

This isn't going to be much a war.

That's a positive; people and soldiers on both sides seem to be showing remarkable restraint in not shooting each other. Maybe if this had happened in some other European countries or the US, they'd have been a far higher death toll. I think so far only 3-4 have been killed in the Crimea and here.

Of course the restraint might be because of an intense fear of what will happen if 'the shooting' really starts, folk memories and so forth.

This isn't restraint, it's operational failure.  They should have armed some of the soldiers with rubber bullets and gas grenades.  They also failed to weed out the disloyal elements of their military.

I disagree, in effect they're pitting a citizens army, I believe many of them are conscripts against their own population, so it's no surprise many soldiers are making individual decisions about whether to attack their own people. 

I think to some extent you approach is a shortcut to instant civil war, which I think is what's giving those on the ground, real pause for thought.

[Razgovory]

I disagree, in effect they're pitting a citizens army, I believe many of them are conscripts against their own population, so it's no surprise many soldiers are making individual decisions about whether to attack their own people. 

I think to some extent you approach is a shortcut to instant civil war, which I think is what's giving those on the ground, real pause for thought.

You really don't want soldiers to make individual decisions like that.  That's not their job.  Their job is to follow lawful orders.  If you are in a situation like that the country is in a lot of danger, it makes more likely that a civil war will occur. 

[Eddie Teach]

I don't think Russia's going to let them have a civil war.

[Sheilbh]

I disagree, in effect they're pitting a citizens army, I believe many of them are conscripts against their own population, so it's no surprise many soldiers are making individual decisions about whether to attack their own people. 

I think to some extent you approach is a shortcut to instant civil war, which I think is what's giving those on the ground, real pause for thought.

Yeah. I think it really must weigh on them. They could be the first shot in a civil war. Especially when you think that there had been comparisons in the past of Ukraine and Yugoslavia, and they're near-neighbours enough to know Russia's approach to winning civil wars.

[CountDeMoney]

They're all rather silly people there.  I give up on the Ukrainians.  You guys were right;  they're even more fucked up than the Russians, and that's a shitload of fucked uppery.

[Ed Anger]

They're all rather silly people there.  I give up on the Ukrainians.  You guys were right;  they're even more fucked up than the Russians, and that's a shitload of fucked uppery.

Told you so.

Slavs suck.

[DGuller]

They're all rather silly people there.  I give up on the Ukrainians.  You guys were right;  they're even more fucked up than the Russians, and that's a shitload of fucked uppery.

[Ed Anger]

They're all rather silly people there.  I give up on the Ukrainians.  You guys were right;  they're even more fucked up than the Russians, and that's a shitload of fucked uppery.

Huh. A Russian agent celebrates. Shocking.

I'm calling ICE.

[alfred russel]

A fuller account of what happened to some of those Ukrainian tracked APC and the origins of those later seen flying the Russian flag when entering Sloviansk.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27059753

Includes details of how the Ukrainian soldiers reacted/acted and interestingly gives an idea of the Ukrainian commander's next move.

This is PR gold for Putin.

There is an argument that it is better to let you country be divided than to fight a destructive war that you will probably lose anyway. But going along with that line of thinking isn't going to encourage others to stick their necks out for you.

[Brazen]

I can't read back because work has blocked this thread as "adult content", but is anyone following the Vice reports from the Ukraine? Pretty intense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTdkY8tl2b0

Much as I desire a press flack jacket, I'd never want to be in a situation where I actually need one...

[Razgovory]

I thought this was going to be about hookers.

[KRonn]

Ukraine's leaders were in Washington asking for weapons and were turned down. Got some nice blankets, beads and trinkets as parting gifts though. I wonder what the rationale is for not giving arms? Thinking that will incite Russia? As if Putin isn't already on the road to take over. The additional arms wouldn't likely help anyway. But it seems to further go against the deal the US, UK and what ever other Euro nations made to defend Ukraine if they gave up parts of their military. I'm not arguing that NATO should fight a war in Ukraine. Just pointing out the possible reneging on a defense treaty. I wonder what the situation will be when Putin moves against the Baltic states, which are NATO members, using similar tactics as in Ukraine and Crimea? Could it be the downfall of the NATO treaty if the nations aren't able or willing to act?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'm not actually sure why we wouldn't give them arms. Putin has armed countries we were on the brink of attacking, with weapons designed specifically to target our aircraft that would be used in the attack. No, the arms wouldn't make Ukraine defensible--no amount of munitions can fix a military that has no trained soldiers, only years of work fix that and Ukraine doesn't have years. But at the same time, given our drunk-sailor spending tendencies a few billion in small arms is absolutely nothing to us and serves as a thumb in Putin's eye. Not sure why we wouldn't do it.

[alfred russel]

I'm not actually sure why we wouldn't give them arms.

At the moment, it seems like they are turning them over to the Russians upon request.