A giant Teutonic brothel - Has liberalization gone too far?

[Berkut]

If we grant the moral argument, what does that have to deal with the legal argument?

Isn't that what ultimately all law is based on? Agreed upon public morals? Enough people came to believe slavery is immoral so it was banned, enough people  believed that drinking alcohol was ok so prohibition was ended.

No, not at all. There are lots of things that people think is immoral that is not illegal.

You are advocating for the tyranny of the majority.

[Admiral Yi]

I mostly agree with Shelf. 

For me, prostitution is a problem simply because it violates the most fundamental and arguably universal moral law, namely reciprocity or the golden rule.  What if it was your sister, mother or daughter who was working as a prostitute?  It's just not in the same league as working a boring office job or whatever.  Realistically speaking, the only girls who get into it are either addicts, victims of abuse or trafficking, girls from grinding 3rd world poverty, or some kind of combination of those factors.  Thus it feeds on previous human misery. If it were truly a legitimate choice, I wonder why we don't see more middle-class girls from happy backgrounds going into it...

How did you come to this conclusion about the backgrounds of hookers?

I read an article about internet prostitution (and some serial killer of internet prostitutes) which suggested quite the opposite--women from very ordinary backgrounds who were attracted by the good money and independence.

[Tamas]

First of all there's lots of talk about coercion and obviously a violent pimp is coercive.

Being a violent, coercive boss is illegal, even in Germany. The only way pimps get away with it is when the job itself is illegal, making it impossible for the victims of the crime to report them.

But as I say from what I've read most prostitutes have been sexually abused before becoming a prostitute.

Sexual abuse is illegal. Prosecute and criminalize that.

They start early. Many have serious problems with addiction

Many non-prostitutes have serious problems with addiction. Deal with that problem.

I will grant that the percentage of people with drug problems who go into prostitution is almost certainly much higher than those who do not. On the other hand, the percentage of people with drug problems who drink too much alcohol is almost certainly much higher as well. Should we make drinking alcohol illegal?

People with drug problems almost certainly turn to a variety of shitty jobs at a much higher rate than non-addicts. Should those other shitty jobs be outlawed?

Being a drug addict sucks in general. Deal with that problem - prostitituion, to the extent that it is a secondary effect, is most certianly a *secondary* effect of drug and sexual abuse.

and almost all - including in Germany - do it because of a particularly tough financial system.

Almost everyone in a shitty job is in the shitty job because of financial coercion. Most people in non-shitty jobs are there because of "financial coercion".

What I don't understand about this argument is that by definition, the people you are attempting to protect would be better off without your protection. After all, if giving middle aged men blowjobs is a crap job, then the only reason people are doing it is because the alternatives is even worse. You are demanding that they go with the alternative, which must in fact be a worse choice.

All the issues I've listed here are secondary effects - abuse, drug use, crappy financial alternatives. If you object to these things, object to them. If you made those circumstances better, fewer people would resort to shitty jobs.

Yes.

[jimmy olsen]

If we grant the moral argument, what does that have to deal with the legal argument?

Isn't that what ultimately all law is based on? Agreed upon public morals? Enough people came to believe slavery is immoral so it was banned, enough people  believed that drinking alcohol was ok so prohibition was ended.

No, not at all. There are lots of things that people think is immoral that is not illegal.

You are advocating for the tyranny of the majority.

That's how society works. If the majority thinks strongly enough about issue X they will have the laws on X changed, through the democratic process if possible, through force if necessary.

[Sheilbh]

What I don't understand about this argument is that by definition, the people you are attempting to protect would be better off without your protection. After all, if giving middle aged men blowjobs is a crap job, then the only reason people are doing it is because the alternatives is even worse. You are demanding that they go with the alternative, which must in fact be a worse choice.

All the issues I've listed here are secondary effects - abuse, drug use, crappy financial alternatives. If you object to these things, object to them. If you made those circumstances better, fewer people would resort to shitty jobs.

As I say I don't think prostitution is just a job and I think there are coercive elements to it beyond pimps.

But I like the Swedish model which tries to do precisely that. They've got 'exit programs' which try and provide comprehensive social support for women who want to leave prostitution. The government provides counselling, housing in a shelter, job training and education in addition to helping the women who wish to leave claim normal benefits. Similarly I think there needs to be a shift for women who've been trafficked so that they're seen as victims, not illegal immigrants to deport back home.

I read a study by the NZ Government about women leaving prostitution and they observed that exit programs and funding are far lower in areas that legalise prostitution, perhaps because there's a sense that they've dealt with the issue.

As I say I want a situation were women who may not be in the country legally feel comfortable and safe testifying against their pimps and clients, because they know there's an alternative.

[CountDeMoney]

Secondly I'm troubled by a society moving towards accepting that women can be bought for sexual use by men. I think that's a social issue as much as anything to do with individuals and it's problematic in terms of how we view and treat women.

Oh, good Lord.  The ability of a woman to sell for profit what she would normally give away for free is the essence of capitalism.

PROSTITUTION IS EMPOWERMENT

[Tamas]

What I don't understand about this argument is that by definition, the people you are attempting to protect would be better off without your protection. After all, if giving middle aged men blowjobs is a crap job, then the only reason people are doing it is because the alternatives is even worse. You are demanding that they go with the alternative, which must in fact be a worse choice.

All the issues I've listed here are secondary effects - abuse, drug use, crappy financial alternatives. If you object to these things, object to them. If you made those circumstances better, fewer people would resort to shitty jobs.

As I say I don't think prostitution is just a job and I think there are coercive elements to it beyond pimps.

But I like the Swedish model which tries to do precisely that. They've got 'exit programs' which try and provide comprehensive social support for women who want to leave prostitution. The government provides counselling, housing in a shelter, job training and education in addition to helping the women who wish to leave claim normal benefits. Similarly I think there needs to be a shift for women who've been trafficked so that they're seen as victims, not illegal immigrants to deport back home.

I read a study by the NZ Government about women leaving prostitution and they observed that exit programs and funding are far lower in areas that legalise prostitution, perhaps because there's a sense that they've dealt with the issue.

As I say I want a situation were women who may not be in the country legally feel comfortable and safe testifying against their pimps and clients, because they know there's an alternative.

When alcohol was outlawed in the US, all kinds of coercive elements, crime, violence etc. got associated with alcohol production and trade. Just to have an obvious example. I get the impression that you want to keep prostitution illegal because of the aspects of it given to it by its illegal status.

[Admiral Yi]

What are the coercive elements beyond pimps Shelf?

[Valmy]

What are the coercive elements beyond pimps Shelf?

Maybe that if you do not sleep with that creepy john, and put up with his shit, you might not be able to make rent or eat?  Just a guess there.

That would seem a strange coercion in Germany with its robust welfare state though.

[CountDeMoney]

What are the coercive elements beyond pimps Shelf?

Maybe that if you do not sleep with that creepy john, and put up with his shit, you might not be able to make rent or eat?  Just a guess there.

Pfft, most of us have been in the service industry at one time or another.  Dealing with shitty customers comes with the territory.

[Tamas]

What are the coercive elements beyond pimps Shelf?

Maybe that if you do not sleep with that creepy john, and put up with his shit, you might not be able to make rent or eat?  Just a guess there.

That would seem a strange coercion in Germany with its robust welfare state though.

Err, still, at the end of the day, if it is a legal business, she can decide to either service Creppy John, or not. Yes, if she does not service him, her income for the month will be lower (duh), but the choice is free and entirely hers.
Now if it is illegal, than the situation is entirely different. She does not have the protection of the law from either creepy john, or her pimp.

[Eddie Teach]

What are the coercive elements beyond pimps Shelf?

Maybe that if you do not sleep with that creepy john, and put up with his shit, you might not be able to make rent or eat?  Just a guess there.

Yeah, but Yi has the same problem if he doesn't stare at his computer screen for 8 hours.

[garbon]

What are the coercive elements beyond pimps Shelf?

Maybe that if you do not sleep with that creepy john, and put up with his shit, you might not be able to make rent or eat?  Just a guess there.

That would seem a strange coercion in Germany with its robust welfare state though.

How is she going to make rent without a job?

[Sheilbh]

When alcohol was outlawed in the US, all kinds of coercive elements, crime, violence etc. got associated with alcohol production and trade. Just to have an obvious example. I get the impression that you want to keep prostitution illegal because of the aspects of it given to it by its illegal status.

Except the evidence by the LSE is that trafficking in women increases when you legalise prostitution. Funding and policies to help women out of prostitution decline. And obviously the market is normalised, the male right to have sex is too important, so we'll create a market that needs new women.

I don't want to keep anything as it is in this country. As I say I think the Swedish model of prosecuting men and making it a crime to buy sex while offering help and social support for the women if they want to exit prostitution including illegal immigrants.

What are the coercive elements beyond pimps Shelf?

I mentioned them. It may be different in the US, but in the UK around 70% of prostitutes spent time in the care system. About 50% were sexually abused at home and over 80% were physically abused. Over 90% have problems with addiction, particularly drugs. And around three-quarters are motivated by poverty. That's a lot of social factors that I think amount to coercion and certainly make the belle du jour idea of totally free consent problematic.

[Valmy]

I mentioned them. It may be different in the US, but in the UK around 70% of prostitutes spent time in the care system. About 50% were sexually abused at home and over 80% were physically abused. Over 90% have problems with addiction, particularly drugs. And around three-quarters are motivated by poverty. That's a lot of social factors that I think amount to coercion and certainly make the belle du jour idea of totally free consent problematic.

Yeah but Prostitution is illegal in the UK isn't it?  You would expect stats like that in a black market setting. In the US we only have a few Nevada counties where it is legal but I do not know the stats on their poverty and abuse and all that, the population we are talking here is very small anyway.  I would be interested to see stats in Germany regarding their legal government protected prostitutes.