A giant Teutonic brothel - Has liberalization gone too far?

[mongers]

Why?

Presumably you don't people to interfere with whom you fuck.  Shouldn't you reciprocate?

You must mistake for some sort of liberal

We shouldn't necessarily be entirely sexually free because what we can and can't do affect all of society and how we value/view sections of it. There are all sorts of limits we place on it based on consent and ability to consent, age and sometimes taboo.

I don't think we should accept prostitution. I think buying sex from a woman who may (and often will) not want to have sex is an obscenity that shouldn't be legal and I think it is a major driver of people trafficking. Honestly I think in many cases it's an institutionalised form of violence against women. But I think arresting the women or rent boys is clearly targeting the victim and it should be the pimps or the men purchasing prostitutes who are arrested.

I believe a lot of research shows that most prostitutes were abused, many started as prostitutes very young and there are links to addiction. This is a problem for social workers not police, but men buying women is a problem for the police.

I though the figures for women trafficked into this country for prostitution had been blown out of the water, for not being up to 'back of envelope' standard.

edit:
This is worth a read:
Is the number of trafficked call girls a myth?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7819984.stm

[Sheilbh]

By this do you mean a woman who is being coerced or do you mean a woman who is not particularly horny at that moment?

Both.

Bleh.  No compassion for the men who have problems and are driven to sleep with whores?

None whatsoever

I though the figures for women trafficked into this country for prostitution had been blown out of the water, for not being up to 'back of envelope' standard.

There's various studies.

That article cites raids of however many targets finding 250 women who were trafficked. In 2010 police raids rescued 750 women and in 2011 almost 1000. Perhaps it was simply that it wasn't a priority and the police lacked the intelligence at an earlier point. Similarly I believe there's some LSE academics who've done research and generally found that legalising or decriminalising prostitution increases human trafficking.

The last estimate I saw by the police - based on academic research - was that there were around 2600 trafficked prostitutes but up to around 9000 'vulnerable migrants'. AI thought that was a rather conservative estimate and there's enormous variation within the UK - so over 95% of prostitutes in London are foreign-born, with an inevitably higher number of trafficked women, while I think around 33% of prostitutes in Yorkshire were. And of course the problem with any attempt at dealing with human trafficking is that, with the general exception of women from Eastern Europe, the victims are also illegal immigrants so they've committed a crime anyway and are treated as such.

[mongers]

By this do you mean a woman who is being coerced or do you mean a woman who is not particularly horny at that moment?

Both.

Bleh.  No compassion for the men who have problems and are driven to sleep with whores?

None whatsoever

I though the figures for women trafficked into this country for prostitution had been blown out of the water, for not being up to 'back of envelope' standard.

There's various studies.

That article cites raids of however many targets finding 250 women who were trafficked. In 2010 police raids rescued 750 women and in 2011 almost 1000. Perhaps it was simply that it wasn't a priority and the police lacked the intelligence at an earlier point. Similarly I believe there's some LSE academics who've done research and generally found that legalising or decriminalising prostitution increases human trafficking.

The last estimate I saw by the police - based on academic research - was that there were around 2600 trafficked prostitutes but up to around 9000 'vulnerable migrants'. AI thought that was a rather conservative estimate and there's enormous variation within the UK - so over 95% of prostitutes in London are foreign-born, with an inevitably higher number of trafficked women, while I think around 33% of prostitutes in Yorkshire were. And of course the problem with any attempt at dealing with human trafficking is that, with the general exception of women from Eastern Europe, the victims are also illegal immigrants so they've committed a crime anyway and are treated as such.

I thought this interesting:

She and her team did some research, ringing up massage parlours and escort agencies in London, asking exactly what sort of services they offered and what nationality the workers were. It is significant, she notes, that in two-thirds of cases researchers were told the prostitutes would not offer anal sex. 

"That suggests to me that more sex workers in indoor prostitution in London exercise more control over the details of their working practices than a lot of the commentators believe," says Ms O'Connell.

Shelf, what's you experience with prostitutes you've known/encountered.

[Ideologue]

Bleh.  No compassion for the men who have problems and are driven to sleep with whores?

Women are oppressed.  Etc.

Actually, in this case I guess they are.  That's why the solution to the problem, like all problems, is nationalization.

[Admiral Yi]

By this do you mean a woman who is being coerced or do you mean a woman who is not particularly horny at that moment?

Both.

I do work all the time when I'd rather be doing something else.  In fact, it's 100% of the time.

How is that any different?

[Sheilbh]

I do work all the time when I'd rather be doing something else.  In fact, it's 100% of the time.

How is that any different?

Yeah. But there's a difference between working in an office and giving the boss a blowjob. If you look at the fact that so few German prostitutes have decided to enter an employment contract I think that gives an idea that this isn't seen as any other job by the women involved.

I imagine for some it's a case of not wanting to make it official. It's a temporary solution to pressing financial need. For others there are difficulties with their sexual rights against their employment ones. If it's an employment contract and you're just not 'horny' then, unlike the prostitutes Mongers mentioned, could they really turn down anal if that's in their contract? Or a client who was into something, whatever, else that they felt uncomfortable doing? The fact is this isn't their time or labour that's being bought it's their sexuality. Men buying women and not for any service but to use them sexually to fulfil that man's desires.

You're looking at it as work, but look at it as sex. In what other context would it be okay for a man to sexually use a woman who has no interest in having sex (with him or in general)? Why is that okay because money's involved?

[garbon]

You're looking at it as work, but look at it as sex. In what other context would it be okay for a man to sexually use a woman who has no interest in having sex (with him or in general)? Why is that okay because money's involved?

In the context of a relationship/marriage? After all there are times when one partner doesn't feel so keen on having sex but has it anyway for the enjoyment of their liked/loved one.

I don't know why it suddenly becomes so different if the exchange of money is clear and explicit. Besides, there are plenty of escorts who make it very clear what they will and will not do as part of the contract.

[Ideologue]

Also I don't think anybody is supporting actual slavery.  Not even Admiral Yi.

Just kidding, bro.  Gotta stay in character.

[Admiral Yi]

Shelf, it's OK for the same reason that me staring at a computer screen for 8 hours is OK.  It's OK because there's no reason not for it to be OK.

I have no idea what you're talking about with that employment contract thing.

[Sheilbh]

In the context of a relationship/marriage? After all there are times when one partner doesn't feel so keen on having sex but has it anyway for the enjoyment of their liked/loved one.

Yeah, to an extent. I mean isn't the difference there that there is some sexual feeling and love (to whatever extent) even if it's not felt at that moment? This is why 'horny' is a poor word, it suggests if the prostitute was actually in a sexual mood then she'd be absolutely down with sleeping with the punter. I think a problem with prostitution is that that's not the case, it's a woman's sexuality being used by a man for his desire - for money.

I don't know why it suddenly becomes so different if the exchange of money is clear and explicit.

I don't think it does, unless you view prostitution as work (and I'd disagree with you), which is precisely a problem I have with it.

Besides, there are plenty of escorts who make it very clear what they will and will not do as part of the contract.

Something that could be potentially lost if they were in an employment contract with a brothel, much like other workers lose the right to refuse to do work-related tasks they dislike.

[Ideologue]

If prostitution isn't work, why am I paying for it?

[Sheilbh]

Shelf, it's OK for the same reason that me staring at a computer screen for 8 hours is OK.  It's OK because there's no reason not for it to be OK.

I've given my reasons for it not being ok. If we can't agree that there's a difference between you having to stare at a computer screen and you have to suck off a middle-aged German businessman then I'm not sure we'll get much further

I have no idea what you're talking about with that employment contract thing.

Where you baffled?

[Admiral Yi]

I've given my reasons for it not being ok. If we can't agree that there's a difference between you having to stare at a computer screen and you have to suck off a middle-aged German businessman then I'm not sure we'll get much further

Well your objection seems to consist of thinking sex for money is a bad thing, which is not terribly enlightening.

Where you baffled?

Over there.  No, a little lower.

I don't know what it means and why you think it makes a difference.  A contract with who?  The john? 

[garbon]

Yeah, to an extent. I mean isn't the difference there that there is some sexual feeling and love (to whatever extent) even if it's not felt at that moment? This is why 'horny' is a poor word, it suggests if the prostitute was actually in a sexual mood then she'd be absolutely down with sleeping with the punter. I think a problem with prostitution is that that's not the case, it's a woman's sexuality being used by a man for his desire - for money.

I don't see why that's necessary though unless you are putting some special or sacred value on sex.

Also what is your take on kept women then? Bad?

I don't think it does, unless you view prostitution as work (and I'd disagree with you), which is precisely a problem I have with it.

I'm not sure what you mean with the disagreement piece. It isn't work, it is?

Something that could be potentially lost if they were in an employment contract with a brothel, much like other workers lose the right to refuse to do work-related tasks they dislike.

Okay so that's an argument against brothels, not prostitution.

[Sheilbh]

I don't see why that's necessary though unless you are putting some special or sacred value on sex.

Of course I put a special value on sex - as I say I think we as societies do, there are lots of restrictions about it. If nothing else it's a fundamental part of a person's personality.

I'm not sure what you mean with the disagreement piece. It isn't work, it is?

I disagree with the idea that it's work like any other.

Okay so that's an argument against brothels, not prostitution.

But that employment contract with a brothel is often necessary for the women to exercise their employee's rights which is part of the purpose of the German law.

Well your objection seems to consist of thinking sex for money is a bad thing, which is not terribly enlightening.

But that's not the issue. Why money make it okay for someone to be able to sexually use another person?

I think sexuality is something we treat differently than other jobs or services, with good reason. I mean you probably feel as much sexual willing for a john as the average prostitute does. Is that fundamentally the same as you having to stare at a computer screen?