Saudi pivots from US

[Crazy_Ivan80]

let the saudi's pivot like they're a bunch of dervishes

[Ed Anger]

Nuke Mecca.

[Grey Fox]

Nuke Mecca.

Israel will be working on that.

[The Minsky Moment]

I dunno, man, don't like that idea...how badly do we have to sell out Israel to get it?  It would never be worth it.

A deal means getting a credibly enforced commitment to no weapons program.  Clearly in Israel's interest.

[Sheilbh]

I dunno, man, don't like that idea...how badly do we have to sell out Israel to get it?  It would never be worth it.

A deal means getting a credibly enforced commitment to no weapons program.  Clearly in Israel's interest.

But it's tough.

I was thinking about this recently. If Iran agreed then there'd need to be a benefit to them: a relaxing or lifting of sanctions. But how much? They'd  still be a destabilising and hostile force in the region such as backing Hezbollah and Palestinian groups.

As I say it sees a difficult balancing act to get enough of a credible reward for cooperation on nukes but that won't cause other problems elsewhere.

[CountDeMoney]

A deal means getting a credibly enforced commitment to no weapons program.  Clearly in Israel's interest.

With the current definitions of dual-purpose technology blurring the lines of non-proliferation enforcement, I really don't see how any deal could comprehensively address those concerns;  particularly with a nuclear program such as Iran's, which has been designed flat and loosely connected specifically and intentionally to make compliance verification or enforcement difficult.

And as Shiv says, that won't stop the IRG from getting their Hezbollah on, and any carrots will simply enhance those capabilities.

[mongers]

My concerns are the here and now, for example take the debate on today's news about the Niqab face veil, worth watching for what it tells you about the radicalisation of some British women:

http://www.channel4.com/news/catch-up/

The scale of the problem is this, as the report mentions despite the French ban only a tiny number of French Muslims ever did or do wear it, something like a few hundreds in the whole country.

Now compare this to the UK where the news item mentions large numbers of women adopting it, it becoming a significant, perhaps soon to be majority garb for the Muslim women in that big community in London. 

None of these women claim it's a tradition within their community and say they've taken it up in recent years, certainly no older than 20 years ago. 

And the bottom line ? Saudi money flowing in, uncontrolled into the UK, funding cultural organisations, printing religious tracts and pamphlets that flood many UK mosques, schools and cultural centres. 

All promoting their particularly cancerous, suicide death-cult version of Islam. 

[CountDeMoney]

All promoting their particularly cancerous, suicide death-cult version of Islam.

As opposed to the particularly cancerous, suicide death-cult cuddly kitten versions of Islam.

[mongers]

All promoting their particularly cancerous, suicide death-cult version of Islam.

As opposed to the particularly cancerous, suicide death-cult cuddly kitten versions of Islam.

I'm sure they're plenty of British Muslims who'd disagree with you, especially women like the brave journalist featured in the debate, who puts with the extremist's death threats and abuse. 

[Duque de Bragança]

Well, Mongers, sorry to disappoint you but in France the niqab is still legal within a mosque and during Carnival
The Saudi connection is nothing new, btw.

PS : the niqab-clad "French" woman interviewed in "France and the banning of the niqab" has some basic grammar issues  As well some legal finer points comprehension issues   
She still speaks better French than Ribéry, on the other hand.

[mongers]

Well, Mongers, sorry to disappoint you but in France the niqab is still legal within a mosque and during Carnival
The Saudi connection is nothing new, btw.

I know, I was just underline the point about it's increasingly malign influence here.

What percentage of french muslim women would were it in public given the choice and what was the percentage before the ban became law. 

The news item implied it was a very small percentage anyway. 

[Duque de Bragança]

Small percentage sounds accurate. Prior to the ban, most occurences of it to me were of Gulf Nationals in the Champs-Elysées. The typical scene would be a man dressed in a western way  taking a stroll while the wife carries all the shopping purchases and the kids.
Less common nowadays though as pointed by the report, the police will not necessarily stop and fine any niqabite. They might have something else to do and/or expect trouble in some areas.

[mongers]

Small percentage sounds accurate. Prior to the ban, most occurences of it to me were of Gulf Nationals in the Champs-Elysées. The typical scene would be a man dressed in a western way  taking a stroll while the wife carries all the shopping purchases and the kids.
Less common nowadays though as pointed by the report, the police will not necessarily stop and fine any niqabite. They might have something else to do and/or expect trouble in some areas.

Cheers for that.

So significantly different to is use as a political tool/statement over here. 

As you describe the situation in France, that's exactly what happened in the report, when the young veiled woman walked down the Parisian streets to pay her fine, she passed several groups of police, who basically shrugged, they noticed her, but I presume weren't going to do anything about it, unless forced to by other circumstances.

[Duque de Bragança]

I guess in the bad banlieues it's a religion and fashion statement as in the UK (e.g Greater London and major cities). The young niqabite was actually shown in the report in the Barbès-Rochechouart neighborhood which is an ethnic enclave in the Paris city centre where one would not be surprised to see niqabs.
I drop there sometimes by night but I don't recall seeing one. Mind you, it's not my neighborhood and outside of metro connections that's only for some cheap shopping.
That area is infamous for having a street blocked by muslims who just pray on the pavement since the mosque is too small. This was revealed by Marine Le Pen who got a boost out of it.

[Berkut]

My concerns are the here and now, for example take the debate on today's news about the Niqab face veil, worth watching for what it tells you about the radicalisation of some British women:

http://www.channel4.com/news/catch-up/

The scale of the problem is this, as the report mentions despite the French ban only a tiny number of French Muslims ever did or do wear it, something like a few hundreds in the whole country.

Now compare this to the UK where the news item mentions large numbers of women adopting it, it becoming a significant, perhaps soon to be majority garb for the Muslim women in that big community in London. 

None of these women claim it's a tradition within their community and say they've taken it up in recent years, certainly no older than 20 years ago. 

And the bottom line ? Saudi money flowing in, uncontrolled into the UK, funding cultural organisations, printing religious tracts and pamphlets that flood many UK mosques, schools and cultural centres. 

All promoting their particularly cancerous, suicide death-cult version of Islam. 

To some degree, don't we have to have a little faith in the power of our own convictions?

I mean, I believe that it is the case that in the long run, free thinking societies will win out on the merits of their argument.

In the short term, the religious fanatics can create these little pockets of bullshit, but in the long run, I think that women in general are not going to put up with all the bullshit that goes along with thing slike a face veil, if they are exposed to a free exchange of ideas in a free society like Great Britain. They are not isloated from alternative views on the role of women, so efforts to stifle the argument are, to me, generally counter productive.

Let them wear their face veils. It won't last.