CSI Venezuela

[Oexmelin]

Why prefer wingnuts of any variety?

For all sorts of reasons.

Because some wingnuts are more harmless than others.
Because some wingnuts are in the service of worthy causes, and others are in the service of hateful causes. 
Because some wingnuts are utopians, rather than dystopians.
Because some wingnuts are inspiring.
Because centrists often delude themselves into thinking that a milquetoast stance on everything is equivalent to reasonableness. Some causes require wingnuts. I don't want to be a centrist on causes like slavery, or antisemitism, or human dignity. 
Because centrism is no less susceptible to extremity and wingnuttery as any of the causes they hope to distinguish themselves from; simply, they offer their beliefs as "common sense". 

Many of the things I cherish about our world have been the result of the action of wingnuts. I can rarely escape the feeling that a reasonable me would have condemned them at the time.

[Valmy]

Why prefer wingnuts of any variety?

For all sorts of reasons.

Because some wingnuts are more harmless than others.
Because some wingnuts are in the service of worthy causes, and others are in the service of hateful causes. 
Because some wingnuts are utopians, rather than dystopians.
Because some wingnuts are inspiring.
Because centrists often delude themselves into thinking that a milquetoast stance on everything is equivalent to reasonableness. Some causes require wingnuts. I don't want to be a centrist on causes like slavery, or antisemitism, or human dignity. 
Because centrism is no less susceptible to extremity and wingnuttery as any of the causes they hope to distinguish themselves from; simply, they offer their beliefs as "common sense". 

Many of the things I cherish about our world have been the result of the action of wingnuts. I can rarely escape the feeling that a reasonable me would have condemned them at the time.

Wingnuts embrace ideas that are proven failures despite evidence and reject any facts that go against their biases. I cannot think of great ideas that have come from that sort of thinking. Enlighten me. I think there is a difference between wingnuts and those who are radicals on some issues.

And I don't regard Yi as being milquetoast at all, he has very passionate convictions. So clearly we are using words that mean different things to each other.

[Oexmelin]

And I don't regard Yi as being milquetoast at all, he has very passionate convictions. So clearly we are using words that mean different things to each other.

Precisely. I have been using wingnut as a synonym for radical. For I am not convinced that the difference between a radical and a wingnut is somehow obliviousness to facts, and to the track record of certain ideas. In 1776, the track record of democracy was quite mediocre, and the facts were utterly against the insurgents. Some ideas are moral imperatives that have little to do with facts, and some facts are the result of deliberate political choices that ought to be reconsidered.

I also do not think Yi is milquetoast at all - that didn't apply to him. But Yi has a very wide definitions of wingnuts, and a very accommodating definition of centrist, as if his core set of belief did not include any form of radical commitment to certain ideas. I find both definitions of wingnut and centrist to be quite unhelpful for an actual discussion of politics, other than simply dismissing people one doesn't like, and celebrating one's own stance as the epitome of rationality.

[Razgovory]

I would prefer if the US simply stays out of this.  The people of Venezuela created this mess, it's up to them to fix it.  Hopefully that will come soon.  On the other hand, if Maduro is overthrown the US shouldbecome involved.  Food Aid, loans, technical assistance, etc.  There is nothing wrong with a helping hand to people who genuinely want it and need it.

In short the US should be a good neighbor.

[Josquius]

I would prefer if the US simply stays out of this.  The people of Venezuela created this mess, it's up to them to fix it.  Hopefully that will come soon.  On the other hand, if Maduro is overthrown the US shouldbecome involved.  Food Aid, loans, technical assistance, etc.  There is nothing wrong with a helping hand to people who genuinely want it and need it.

In short the US should be a good neighbor.

If only they'd waited 2 more years....

[derspiess]

I would prefer if the US simply stays out of this.  The people of Venezuela created this mess, it's up to them to fix it.  Hopefully that will come soon.  On the other hand, if Maduro is overthrown the US shouldbecome involved.  Food Aid, loans, technical assistance, etc.  There is nothing wrong with a helping hand to people who genuinely want it and need it.

In short the US should be a good neighbor.

What are your thoughts on actions we've taken so far?  Should we have continued to recognize Maduro as prez?

[Tamas]

I would prefer if the US simply stays out of this.  The people of Venezuela created this mess, it's up to them to fix it.  Hopefully that will come soon.  On the other hand, if Maduro is overthrown the US shouldbecome involved.  Food Aid, loans, technical assistance, etc.  There is nothing wrong with a helping hand to people who genuinely want it and need it.

In short the US should be a good neighbor.

What are your thoughts on actions we've taken so far?  Should we have continued to recognize Maduro as prez?

As much as I despise that communist asshatery going on there, recognising some random dude declaring himself President seems like a bit of a desperate move. Covertly arming rebels should have been the way to go.

[celedhring]

1980s nostalgia runs strong in Tamas 

I despise Maduro, but this step can easily devolve into a civil war or more repression unless the dude succeeds in bringing down Maduro - and that's not taking into account that foreign-effected regime changes rarely bring longterm stability. I don't really trust the current White House to have meticulously considered the outcomes here.

To be frank, we still haven't come up with a good way to remove cuntish regimes without making a mess of it.

[derspiess]

I would prefer if the US simply stays out of this.  The people of Venezuela created this mess, it's up to them to fix it.  Hopefully that will come soon.  On the other hand, if Maduro is overthrown the US shouldbecome involved.  Food Aid, loans, technical assistance, etc.  There is nothing wrong with a helping hand to people who genuinely want it and need it.

In short the US should be a good neighbor.

What are your thoughts on actions we've taken so far?  Should we have continued to recognize Maduro as prez?

As much as I despise that communist asshatery going on there, recognising some random dude declaring himself President seems like a bit of a desperate move. Covertly arming rebels should have been the way to go.

He's not some random dude.

[Razgovory]

I would prefer if the US simply stays out of this.  The people of Venezuela created this mess, it's up to them to fix it.  Hopefully that will come soon.  On the other hand, if Maduro is overthrown the US shouldbecome involved.  Food Aid, loans, technical assistance, etc.  There is nothing wrong with a helping hand to people who genuinely want it and need it.

In short the US should be a good neighbor.

What are your thoughts on actions we've taken so far?  Should we have continued to recognize Maduro as prez?

Eh, I'm fine with it.

[Tamas]

I would prefer if the US simply stays out of this.  The people of Venezuela created this mess, it's up to them to fix it.  Hopefully that will come soon.  On the other hand, if Maduro is overthrown the US shouldbecome involved.  Food Aid, loans, technical assistance, etc.  There is nothing wrong with a helping hand to people who genuinely want it and need it.

In short the US should be a good neighbor.

What are your thoughts on actions we've taken so far?  Should we have continued to recognize Maduro as prez?

As much as I despise that communist asshatery going on there, recognising some random dude declaring himself President seems like a bit of a desperate move. Covertly arming rebels should have been the way to go.

He's not some random dude.

What's the legitimacy of his claim?

[Admiral Yi]

As much as I despise that communist asshatery going on there, recognising some random dude declaring himself President seems like a bit of a desperate move. Covertly arming rebels should have been the way to go.

That plays straight into the Yanqui imperialist narrative and Maduro's own conspiracy theories.  Plus it would upset the Democratic Socialists. 

[Valmy]

What are your thoughts on actions we've taken so far?  Should we have continued to recognize Maduro as prez?

I am not particularly interested in providing political cover and a nationalist boogieman for the nutters in South America to hide behind to excuse their failures. Plus it takes considerably less effort and money to do nothing and there is no guarantee that doing something would even be beneficial in the end.

[Tamas]

I think Raz is spot on on this one.

The US should let the tragedy unfold because no matter what they do it would end up in tragedy eventually. And whe the dust settles and some remotely acceptable regime stabilises, offer humanitarian aid.

But then again there are massive oil reserves involved which other big players won't want to leave alone either, so there's no chance for that scenario.

[Tamas]

1980s nostalgia runs strong in Tamas 

It was a simpler world.