Pastor has sex with teens to cure them of homosexuality

[Habbaku]

Viking, it really isn't necessary for you to take up Martinus' horrible analogy banner.

[merithyn]

Two points:

1) A suspended sentence is not an imaginary sentence.  Incarceration for a portion or the entirety of suspended sentences are routinely imposed on people for violating conditions of probation, which are often quite extensive/restrictive and can last for years and years.  Having serious prison time hanging over your head is quite different than a straight probationary sentence.

BFD

The guy in Montana had "serious prison time" hanging over his head, and he ended up with 30 days when he fucked that up, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't weep for either of these two.

[Capetan Mihali]

Two points:

1) A suspended sentence is not an imaginary sentence.  Incarceration for a portion or the entirety of suspended sentences are routinely imposed on people for violating conditions of probation, which are often quite extensive/restrictive and can last for years and years.  Having serious prison time hanging over your head is quite different than a straight probationary sentence.

BFD

The guy in Montana had "serious prison time" hanging over his head, and he ended up with 30 days when he fucked that up, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't weep for either of these two.

That was quite clearly an exceptional situation (thus the legitimate outrage nationwide), and it seemed like his violation was, at the risk of being tarred as a minimizer, fairly technical (IIRC he had done the bulk of his required sex offender classes and was "kicked out" for missing a few for scheduling reasons, but I could be wrong), rather than e.g. picking up a new sex charge, failing to report to his PO for weeks, etc.

I have very little interest in defending the short incarceration sentence the Montana dirtbag received, and even less in defending this guy's sentence.  I certainly have no interest in trying to get you to weep for them. 

But I do have an interest in helping Americans better understand the nature of a criminal punishment system that is, outrageous anomalies aside, excessively punitive and, especially, excessively reliant on incarceration as a solution. 

In North Carolina, for instance, stat rape was treated the same as forcible rape; for an adult (>19 or maybe 20) who had "consensual" sex with a 15 y.o., the presumptive sentence was 240 months imprisonment, to serve.  So 15 would quite literally get you 20.

Just to provide a broader perspective on the system that occasionally produces these admittedly lenient sentences that get people overly riled up and willing to endorse a generally very harsh system (mandatory minimums, excessive sex offender registry requirements, and excessive punishments for e.g. failing to update your address within 14 days when your sex offense occurred 30 years ago. [I saw that scenario in Knoxville, where a man who plead guilty to accessory to rape as a 16 year old in 1980 served 8 years of a 20 year sentence in the state pen, did the rest on parole without an incident, and only got a single marijuana charge around 2002 in the whole time from 1988 onward.  For the registry violation in 2011, when he moved into his girlfriend's retirement community and the cop couldn't get through the gates to the complex and reported, he served 120 days in the county jail -- after pleading to a felony violation to avoid the full 2 years behind bars he faced under the statute.]

[Neil]

Two points:

1) A suspended sentence is not an imaginary sentence.  Incarceration for a portion or the entirety of suspended sentences are routinely imposed on people for violating conditions of probation, which are often quite extensive/restrictive and can last for years and years.  Having serious prison time hanging over your head is quite different than a straight probationary sentence.

BFD

The guy in Montana had "serious prison time" hanging over his head, and he ended up with 30 days when he fucked that up, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't weep for either of these two.

The guy in Montana wasn't a faggot.

[Viking]

Viking, it really isn't necessary for you to take up Martinus' horrible analogy banner.

The place just hasn't been the same since he left...  

[merithyn]

That was quite clearly an exceptional situation (thus the legitimate outrage nationwide), and it seemed like his violation was, at the risk of being tarred as a minimizer, fairly technical (IIRC he had done the bulk of his required sex offender classes and was "kicked out" for missing a few for scheduling reasons, but I could be wrong), rather than e.g. picking up a new sex charge, failing to report to his PO for weeks, etc.

I have very little interest in defending the short incarceration sentence the Montana dirtbag received, and even less in defending this guy's sentence.  I certainly have no interest in trying to get you to weep for them. 

But I do have an interest in helping Americans better understand the nature of a criminal punishment system that is, outrageous anomalies aside, excessively punitive and, especially, excessively reliant on incarceration as a solution. 

In North Carolina, for instance, stat rape was treated the same as forcible rape; for an adult (>19 or maybe 20) who had "consensual" sex with a 15 y.o., the presumptive sentence was 240 months imprisonment, to serve.  So 15 would quite literally get you 20.

Just to provide a broader perspective on the system that occasionally produces these admittedly lenient sentences that get people overly riled up and willing to endorse a generally very harsh system (mandatory minimums, excessive sex offender registry requirements, and excessive punishments for e.g. failing to update your address within 14 days when your sex offense occurred 30 years ago. [I saw that scenario in Knoxville, where a man who plead guilty to accessory to rape as a 16 year old in 1980 served 8 years of a 20 year sentence in the state pen, did the rest on parole without an incident, and only got a single marijuana charge around 2002 in the whole time from 1988 onward.  For the registry violation in 2011, when he moved into his girlfriend's retirement community and the cop couldn't get through the gates to the complex and reported, he served 120 days in the county jail -- after pleading to a felony violation to avoid the full 2 years behind bars he faced under the statute.]

Okay? I'm pretty sure that I've never said that there should be mandatory sentencing for anyone. I said that I think these two particular scum bags didn't get anywhere near the amount of time that they deserved.

[Neil]

OK, Mom.

[merithyn]

OK, Mom.

Don't you start, too.

[Ed Anger]

You are lucky I ain't starting.

[merithyn]

You are lucky I ain't starting.

I have an antidote for you:

[Ed Anger]

It doesn't work.

[Capetan Mihali]

Okay? I'm pretty sure that I've never said that there should be mandatory sentencing for anyone. I said that I think these two particular scum bags didn't get anywhere near the amount of time that they deserved.

I'm suggesting that getting overly exercised about very exceptional situations can and has lead to bad social consequences.  I.e. the "tough on crime," "war on drugs," "no-frills prisons" wave of punitive legislation that took off during the mid-80s through the mid-90s.

For instance, your legitimate anger over the 30-day term in Mont., as well no immediate incarceration for this guy, seemed to have lead you to misunderstand and denounce suspended sentences as bullshit, while they are in fact quite real, especially for people -- unlike these two men -- with very few social/financial/educational resources.

[garbon]

In North Carolina, for instance, stat rape was treated the same as forcible rape; for an adult (>19 or maybe 20) who had "consensual" sex with a 15 y.o., the presumptive sentence was 240 months imprisonment, to serve.  So 15 would quite literally get you 20.

Good.

[Capetan Mihali]

In North Carolina, for instance, stat rape was treated the same as forcible rape; for an adult (>19 or maybe 20) who had "consensual" sex with a 15 y.o., the presumptive sentence was 240 months imprisonment, to serve.  So 15 would quite literally get you 20.

Good.

Meh, enjoy funding the prison-industrial complex, what with our highest rate of incarceration in the world.    We even beat Russia and PRChina!

And of course a rate ridiculously high for black men in general, and something insane for black male high-school dropouts.

And certainly 20 years in prison is a proportionate reaction to the crime committed.  God knows there'll be plenty of opportunities for the offender to be rehabilitated and productive once he's 50 with no skills other than those he learned in prison (which is, of course, the most violent and misogynistic environment in America). 

[DGuller]

In North Carolina, for instance, stat rape was treated the same as forcible rape; for an adult (>19 or maybe 20) who had "consensual" sex with a 15 y.o., the presumptive sentence was 240 months imprisonment, to serve.  So 15 would quite literally get you 20.

Good.