Pope on gays : "Who am I to judge?"

[grumbler]

If he's considered a martyr he can go straight to beatification without any miracles

In practice, though, it would take a miracle to get beatified without any.

[Sheilbh]

Pope's done another interview
http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/10/01/news/pope_s_conversation_with_scalfari_english-67643118/
From Rocco Palmo:

(SVILUPPO: After this report was published, La Repubblica produced a full English translation of the interview, rendering its headline "How the church will change.")

Even as the first meeting of his new "Council of Cardinals" begins this morning – and this Tuesday likewise brings the report of an unprecedented external audit on the Vatican Bank – the pontiff's first focus lay distinctly elsewhere.

"The gravest of the evils that afflict the world in our time are the unemployment of the young and the loneliness in which the elderly are left," Francis said, reprising a theme he's frequently addressed in other contexts. "The old need care and company; the young need work and hope, but they don't have each other, and the problem is that they don't seek each other out anymore.

The young are "shackled in the present," the Pope said. "But tell me: can one live shackled in the present? Without a memory of the past and without the desire to throw oneself into the future: to build a project, an adventure, a family? Is it possible to continue like this? This, for me, is the most urgent problem that the church has in front of it.... It's not the only problem, but it is the most urgent and the most dramatic."

Asked about secular politics, the pontiff turned stronger still: "Why are you asking me about that? I have already said that the church will not occupy itself with politics."

Explaining that he was obliged to address himself "not just to Catholics, but all people of goodwill," Francis – who reportedly never voted in Argentinian elections as a bishop – explained thus: "I've said that politics is the first among civil activities and has its own arena of action which is not that of religion. Political institutions are secular [laiche – lay] by definition and work in an independent sphere. All of my predecessors have said this, at least for many years, albeit with different accents. I believe that Catholics tasked with political life must keep the values of their religion before them, but with a mature conscience and competence to realize them. The church will never go beyond its task of expressing and publicizing its values, at least for as long as I'm here."

Accordingly, it was on the internals of church life where the Jesuit Pope struck his most determined notes – or, as he described his governing style, his utmost "firmness and tenacity." Francis said that the formation of his unprecedented "Gang of Eight" – which he termed "my council" – marked "the beginning of a church with an organization that's not only vertical but also horizontal." While that's yet another indication of the concept of synodality as the core of the impending Curial reform, in this instance Francis conspicuously stretched its reach even further.

Saying that the "defect" of the Roman Curia is an excessive tendency to be "Vatican-centric" and "car[ing] for [its own] interests which are also, in large part, worldly interests," Francis declared that "I don't share this vision and will do everything to change it.

"The church is, or must return to being, a community of the People of God," the Pope said, "and the priests, pastors, bishops with the care of souls, are at the service of the People of God.

"This is the church, a word that's a different case from the Holy See, which has an important function but is at the service of the church."

Referring to his late confrere, the progressive Milanese Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, the Pope said that when the prelate spoke of "the accent of Councils and Synods, he knew well that it'd be a long, difficult path to proceed in this direction." Stacking himself against the saint whose name he took – whose tomb he'll visit on Friday – Francis preceded the comment by saying that he "certainly [isn't] not Francis of Assisi and I don't have his strength or his holiness, but I am the Bishop of Rome and the Pope of Catholicism." Eight hundred years since the original Francis, however, Bergoglio returned to one of his pontificate's first expressed thread, noting that the Poverello's "ideal of a missionary and poor church remains more than valid.

"This is consistently the church that Jesus and his disciples preached," Francis said. And one thing that has no place in it for the Pope is clericalism – which, he said, "has nothing to do with Christianity." When Scalfari said that, despite being a nonbeliever, he only became anticlerical "when I meet a clericalist," Francis apparently "smiled" in response and said that he, too, "become[ s] an anticlericalist in a flash" when he's faced with an officious priest.

As for the church's role in the modern world, the pontiff – the first bishop of Rome to be ordained a priest after Vatican II – underscored his adherence to the path charted out by the Council, but only after "personally" embracing his predecessor's controversial thought that "to be a minority [church] could even be a strength."

"We must be a leaven of life and of love," Francis said, "and the leaven is infinitely smaller than the mass of fruit, of flowers and trees that grow thanks to it.... [ O]ur objective isn't proselytism but listening to [people's] needs, desires, disappointments, desperations and hopes. We must restore hope to the young, aid the old, open ourselves to the future, spread love. [We must be] the poor among the poor. We must include the excluded and preach peace. Vatican II, inspired by Pope John and Paul VI, decided to look to the future with a modern spirit and to open [the church] to modern culture. The Council fathers knew that opening to modern culture meant religious ecumenism and dialogue with non believers. After then very little was done in that direction. I have the humility and ambition to want to do it."

While walking his visitor to the door of the Vatican guesthouse, in a sudden aside the Pope told Scalfari that his reforms "will also discuss the role of women in the church," reminding the interviewer that "the church is feminine."

The host didn't specify his intended result, but Scalfari closed his piece with a rather bold assessment: "This is Pope Francis. If the church becomes as he thinks and wants, it will be an epochal change."

[Tamas]

I wonder if he did a Powerpoint presentation to the Conclave about the marketing strategy he would employ if elected.

[sbr]

Summary?

[Sheilbh]

I doubt it. I imagine the Conclave are a bit worried right now. Everyone was saying the next Pope would reform the Curia and maybe institute some more horizontal governing structures, but because they'd all been appointed by Benedict or JP they'd all be of one mind on pretty much everything else.

I don't think they were expecting a chatterbox pope or someone who'd start praising Carlo Martini

My view is that he's not liberal or conservative he's just a Pope of the mainstream Catholic middle. The silent majority who fill the pews regardless of whether the priest's doing the Taize prayer or the Sarum rite. But it is funny to see liberals suddenly fall in love with ultramontanism and conservatives praising a synodal approach to the Church

Edit: A trend on conservative blogs has actually been to start comparing Francis to the Borgia pope who at least was orthodox and didn't touch the liturgy

[Viking]

Every time this pope seems to open his mouth on anything I hear Stephen Fry in my head asking "Then, what are you for?.

As for this interview.. if you are the Pope and your answer to the question of "What is the gravest of all evils that afflict the world in our time?" and the answer isn't "Sin" then I have to ask if he takes his own religion seriously or not? If the answer isn't "Sin" then what is the point of Christianity? What is the Church for? Because it certainly isn't about getting an improved Gini coefficient.

[Razgovory]

Every time this pope seems to open his mouth on anything I hear Stephen Fry in my head asking "Then, what are you for?.

As for this interview.. if you are the Pope and your answer to the question of "What is the gravest of all evils that afflict the world in our time?" and the answer isn't "Sin" then I have to ask if he takes his own religion seriously or not? If the answer isn't "Sin" then what is the point of Christianity? What is the Church for? Because it certainly isn't about getting an improved Gini coefficient.

You should probably see a doctor about that.  Hearing voices is not normal.

[derspiess]

 

[Sheilbh]

Every time this pope seems to open his mouth on anything I hear Stephen Fry in my head asking "Then, what are you for?.

That's probably a good sign.

As for this interview.. if you are the Pope and your answer to the question of "What is the gravest of all evils that afflict the world in our time?" and the answer isn't "Sin" then I have to ask if he takes his own religion seriously or not? If the answer isn't "Sin" then what is the point of Christianity? What is the Church for? Because it certainly isn't about getting an improved Gini coefficient.

He talks a lot about the devil actually.

But I think he's right. From a Catholic perspective there is a dignity in work so this mass unemployment, as he puts it, affects the soul as well as the body. There is more than a material element to it.

More widely the point he's making is the old Catholic critique of liberalism. That we have our autonomous, individual lives but this leaves the people on the periphery - the old, the poor, the unemployed with no hope who have even stopped looking for work. Because of that there's a hollowness to it. As he puts it, specifically talking about youth unemployment, but I think also Western society in general it's crushed by the present with not enough memory in the past or hope in the future. And that's where he sees the Church as needed:

We always have been [a minority] but the issue today is not that. Personally I think that being a minority is actually a strength. We have to be a leavening of life and love and the leavening is infinitely smaller than the mass of fruits, flowers and trees that are born out of it. I believe I have already said that our goal is not to proselytize but to listen to needs, desires and disappointments, despair, hope. We must restore hope to young people, help the old, be open to the future, spread love. Be poor among the poor. We need to include the excluded and preach peace.

It reminds me of Rabbi Sacks's distinction between optimism and hope, and that hope is the core of faith, especially in his view the Jewish faith.

[grumbler]

More widely the point he's making is the old Catholic critique of liberalism. That we have our autonomous, individual lives but this leaves the people on the periphery - the old, the poor, the unemployed with no hope who have even stopped looking for work. Because of that there's a hollowness to it. As he puts it, specifically talking about youth unemployment, but I think also Western society in general it's crushed by the present with not enough memory in the past or hope in the future. And that's where he sees the Church as needed:

We always have been [a minority] but the issue today is not that. Personally I think that being a minority is actually a strength. We have to be a leavening of life and love and the leavening is infinitely smaller than the mass of fruits, flowers and trees that are born out of it. I believe I have already said that our goal is not to proselytize but to listen to needs, desires and disappointments, despair, hope. We must restore hope to young people, help the old, be open to the future, spread love. Be poor among the poor. We need to include the excluded and preach peace.

It reminds me of Rabbi Sacks's distinction between optimism and hope, and that hope is the core of faith, especially in his view the Jewish faith.

It's always fun to hear leaders say things about their own organizations that they don't believe, that we know they don't believe, and that they know we know they don't believe.  The Catholic Church has never been about being poor.  It has never been about serving the interests of the failures.  And it certainly hasn't been about spreading "love."  it has been about paying lip service to values like that while pursuing the growth in the power and wealth of the church.

[derspiess]

I'm not exactly pro-Catholic, but that's a bit harsh.

[garbon]

I'm not exactly pro-Catholic, but that's a bit harsh.

Yeah...

[grumbler]

I'm not exactly pro-Catholic, but that's a bit harsh.

Do you believe that the church tries to be 'the poor among the poor?"  It is one of the wealthiest institutions in the world, and getting wealthier.

One could argue against my position, of course.  That might even be fun.  A dogpile of "that's harsh" and "yeah" isn't much fun, though.

[garbon]

I'm not exactly pro-Catholic, but that's a bit harsh.

Do you believe that the church tries to be 'the poor among the poor?"  It is one of the wealthiest institutions in the world, and getting wealthier.

One could argue against my position, of course.  That might even be fun.  A dogpile of "that's harsh" and "yeah" isn't much fun, though.

No, arguing with you isn't fun. Tedious, perhaps.

[Barrister]

It's always fun to hear leaders say things about their own organizations that they don't believe, that we know they don't believe, and that they know we know they don't believe.  The Catholic Church has never been about being poor.  It has never been about serving the interests of the failures.  And it certainly hasn't been about spreading "love."  it has been about paying lip service to values like that while pursuing the growth in the power and wealth of the church.

I don't know how you can possibly make definitive statements about what the beliefs and intents are of an enormous, multi-faceted organization like the Roman Catholic Church.  The Church isn't an individual with a single operating mind - rather it is comprised of over one billion adherents, over 400,000 priests, 5,000 bishops and 100 cardinals.

The church has always been "about" many different things.  Obviously in part it is "about" accumulating money.  Hell to some it was "about" molesting little boys and girls.  But it has also pretty clearly also been "about" spreading love and been "about" serving the poor.